permaculture

["Gray, Lisa" <LGray@museumoflondon.org.uk>]

Dear Jamie and all,

I've just had a very quick scan (at work at present) of your email and feel
you've picked up on something dear to my heart. I believe that the only
valid reason for studying the past is to learn form it to look for trends
nad to improve the way we are working with the land today. I'm an
environmental archaeologist, unfortunately not in the position to research
this theme at present (though if I won our national lottery I'd jump at the
chance to do a PhD linking archaseobotany with permaculture!), but I bear it
in mind in my work and my permacultural interests. If anyone wants to ask
specific plant history related questions a good list is the archaeobotany
mailing list. I'm sure my colleagues would enjoy a debate putting our work
in a practical and useful context. I hope I've read your mail correctly ;-).


best wishes,


Lisa

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Lisa Gray
Archaeobotanist
Environmental Archaeology Section
Museum of London Specialist Services
TEL: 0207 5669334
 





> -----Original Message-----
> From: jamie nicol [mailto:jamie@tiscali.fr]
> Sent: 29 August 2002 12:45
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] Pc and large scale farms
> 
> 
> Hello Kirby and anyone else following this thread. I can imagine how
> subsidies for a more nature friendly, farm-integrated approach might
> encourage larger farms down the Pc road, the growing interest 
> in Whole Farm
> Planning that I have seen (Rhonda Janke at Kansas University) 
> might be just
> such a vehicle for this. However, it has always seemed to me 
> that Pc favours
> small, intensive systems and not larger cropping systems - 
> although Mark has
> suggested some intriguing possibilities in another post.
>       I'm trying to extract an ethic that I feel present in 
> Pc that somehow is
> anathema to larger farms and not just those awash with 
> industrial chemicals.
> It has to do with the nature of our interaction with the land we work.
> Larger scale has meant in modern times the use of ever more 
> and ever larger
> machinery to achieve a certain operation whether it be 
> clearing, plowing,
> harvesting etc. It often means the landowner employing others 
> to do much of
> the work. The result of the machinery and the workers is to create a
> distance between the farmer and his land, a distance not 
> present in the very
> real, hands on (and often non-machine orientated) world of Pc. It is
> alienation from the land that leads to the environmental 
> problems only now
> being faced up to. However, these pressures toward larger and 
> larger farms
> in the desire for greater and greater efficiency, is not new. 
> The resultant
> wastage of once prime agricultural land has been seen before. 
> Look at the
> quote below and I wonder if you will be struck, as I was, by the
> similarities between today's agricultural pressures and those 
> of the Roman
> Empire:
> 
> 
>  Reconstruction by Way of the Soil
> by G.T. Wrench (1946 if I'm reading the roman numerals correctly)
> Chapter 2
> Rome
> Rome and its civilization constitute the progenitors of the civilized
> Western world; consequently, without a knowledge of Rome's 
> relation to the
> soil, it would not be possible for us to extract from history 
> the principles
> of reconstruction from the soil.
> 
> We have to study history, because in no other way can we tell 
> what the Roman
> land was like and how it looked. History reveals that if, by 
> some magic, we
> could transport ourselves back to the days of the early Latin 
> farmers, we
> should see a picture of a well-populated countryside with the 
> land divided
> up into a number of small farms, often not exceeding five 
> acres in extent.
> As each small farm had to support a family, the farming, we 
> should see, was
> intensive; in other words, each particle of soil would be in 
> use, so that
> the fields appeared quite crowded with a variety of crops. 
> The whole food of
> the family would come from the farm, and not only the food of 
> the family,
> but that of some of its domestic animals. By day we should 
> see the various
> members of the family hard at work upon the farm, the males 
> -- and sometimes
> females -- busy upon the land itself, and the womenfolk in 
> the home and
> dairy. We should see also a large number of villages with a 
> pleasant light
> of prosperity shining upon them. Other things would also be 
> there of great
> importance, soon to be described, some of which could be 
> seen, and some
> found under the earth.
> 
> Then let us be allowed to look at the same land some five 
> centuries later.
> The picture is now quite different. We should see but few 
> villages and few
> small farms, and upon the farms we should see what farmers 
> call foul fields
> and even land that was derelict. In place of the small farms 
> we should see
> mainly orchards, vineyards and dairy farms. It would, indeed, 
> be quite clear
> to us that the main object of this different form of farming 
> was to supply
> fruit, grapes, olives, milk and cheese to people who did not 
> work upon the
> farms or in the villages at all, but who lived in the proud, 
> neighbouring
> city that had now become the chief city of all Italy and was 
> soon to become
> the capital of the Mediterranean world. We should also see that these
> estates were no longer worked by Latin farmers, but by quite 
> a different
> sort of men, clearly not Italians, and men lacking the 
> buoyancy and freedom
> of the older farmers. We should, indeed, have reason to rub 
> our eyes, for
> some of these men, incredible though it might seem to us, 
> would be shackled
> with iron and some even chained to each other while they 
> worked. These were
> the slaves, some of whom were strong, fierce men and some weak and
> depressed. These two pictures we should see; the first would 
> be that of
> family farming, the second that of capitalistic farming.
> 
> Transporting ourselves to a yet later date, we should see a 
> third picture.
> The land is now swampy and derelict, and its most significant 
> product swarms
> of mosquitoes, which caused the fevers that permitted only a 
> few wretched
> men and cattle to scrape together some sort of livelihood and 
> that visited,
> with lethal effect, the inhabitants of the great but waning 
> city itself.
> This would be the picture of debased soil fertility.
> 
> Just as was seen 1500 and more years ago, the most suitable form of
> agriculture is family orientated, erected on the same principles of
> practical concern as the family itself- the two so closely 
> intertwined as to
> be inseparable. It is just this connection that I see Pc 
> making, if only in
> an implicit guise. Family's fortunately have the ability to 
> be whatever we
> chose to make them now in our post nuclear (family) society, 
> but I suspect
> that such a unit, whatever its actual make up of sexes, 
> offspring or age
> groups, is essential to the ties and thus husbandry 
> (sustaining care) of the
> land. When crops are grown for money (as it is explicitly on 
> large farms and
> some medium and small scale farms too) and not for the 
> sustenance of those
> who tend the land, then another relating layer is stripped away.
> If I making sense here, then I should have drawn a connection (however
> tenuous) between Pc and it's favouring of small, family 
> sized, integrated
> and intensively cultivated farms. If true then large farms 
> are anathema to
> Pc, period.
> 
> Jamie
> Souscayrous
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Kirby Fry
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 5:42 AM
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] Theory of Everyhting
> 
> Hi Jamie,
> 
> Good to hear from you.  In the midst of all this text flying 
> around there
> ARE actually people behind the words.
> 
> >>  though I might have toned down your 'no exceptions'  <<
> 
> Yes, that was certainly overstated.  By 'no exceptions' I 
> believe I meant
> that, non-native plants should fall under permaculture ethics 
> as well as the
> natives they may be displacing, that they shouldn't be an 
> exception to Pc
> ethics.  I didn't mean 'no exception' to my interpretation 
> of, working with
> Nature rather than against it.
> 
> >>  It is for this reason that I'm not quite sure to what you were
> responding.  <<
> 
> Apparently, I misunderstood Steve's question.  What I have 
> been studying is
> why folks have it in for non-native plants and if steady eradication
> regimens are what they are recommending we carry out.
> 
> So I think I misinterpreted Steve's post as using scale of 
> operation as
> justification for persistently removing non-native plants.
> 
> >>  big from a European perspective  <<
> 
> Are you from Europe?
> 
> >> I certainly agree that 'industrial agriculture...is anathema to
> permaculture' but does that also hold true of all large farms?  <<
> 
> No, not inherently, though the scale of mistakes increases 
> right along with
> scale of size.
> 
> I worked on a dairy farm in California for a few summers 
> growing up.  It was
> a big farm and could keep 1,000 cows milking three times a 
> day.  I believe
> now they are milking 3,000 cows twice daily.
> 
> There was a lot of manure and illness but I believe that the 
> operation could
> have eventually been run sustainably since my cousins were 
> always open to
> better and cleaner ways of doing things.  I hope to take my 
> two girls there
> (now 3 and 6 years old) for a summer in the near future.
> 
> >>  Should larger farms be broken up so Pc principles can be 
> applied?  <<
> 
>  Pc principles, of course, can be applied at all levels of 
> scale.  I don't
> think anything but market factors or disaster will lead to 
> the break up
> large farms, but large farms at least should be given more government
> incentives to work with nature, i.e. better utilize their 
> waste, improve the
> treatment of their workers, and the plants and animals they harvest.
> Hopefully, one day soon, our markets and natural resources 
> will achieve
> equilibrium.
> 
> >>  What I'm after is a similarly coherent Pc strategy on the 
> large scale
> (within the resources of current large farm owners) to that many of us
> practice on a small scale.  <<
> 
> Funny that you mention this.  I recently read Ken Wilber's 
> book called, "The
> Theory of Everything."  He talks about there being four 
> quadrants that we
> operate in:  internal singular - our individual perceptions 
> and emotions;
> internal plural - our collective behavior as a culture and 
> society; external
> singular - examination of the human body as an organism; and, external
> plural - all of the natural world around us.
> 
> A genuinely integral Pc strategy or ethic would be able to 
> serve all scales
> of production and operate in all four quadrants of thought.  
> Larger scale
> operations, hopefully, would not expand beyond their ability 
> to meet the
> emotional and social needs of the people which create and operate the
> business.  Neither would the medical health of the individual nor the
> biological health of the land and bio-systems supporting the 
> business be
> diminished.
> 
> When we factor in the well being of all four of the quadrants 
> we really
> can't go wrong.  IMO, Pc needs the most work on the inner two quad's.
> 
> Re: my frustration with industrial agriculture...
> 
> I believe when I was talking about industrial agriculture, I 
> was referring
> to those sectors which are doing everything they can to dump 
> their wastes as
> inexpensively as possible.  Here in Texas there are suburban 
> developers,
> chemical companies, oil refineries and commercial farmers 
> pushing every
> button they can to make their operations as inexpensive as 
> possible at the
> expense of everything except the value of their stock or profits.
> 
> I speak from first hand experience...  We live right next to 
> an aluminum
> smelter that is about to annex another 16,000 acres of land 
> for coal surface
> mining - 2 miles away from our land.  This coal will fire the 
> power plant
> for the ALCOA Rockdale smelter which is the dirtiest energy 
> plant in Texas.
> Texas is the number one source of air pollution in the U.S.A.
> 
> The former CEO of ALCOA is now the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury.
> 
> So guess where that puts us, back in the realm of politics and graft.
> 
> However, there's plenty of hope for businesses who are willing to work
> towards being more integrally sustainable in their operations.
> 
> >>  If we could come up with such a coherent structure we 
> could then keep
> these farmers away from the 'machine and influence 
> peddling...corporations.'
> <<
> 
> I really like what Ben Cohen with true Majority, once of Ben 
> and Jerry's Ice
> Cream, is doing here in the states.  True Majority sends out 
> an e-mail that
> covers one social or environmental issue per month so that 
> you can send a
> fax, write a letter or call your congress person about that issue.
> 
> Those of us concerned with our natural resources and food 
> production also
> need to know more about our tax and trade laws and when to 
> collectively
> apply pressure on our governments and steer them towards an 
> integral future.
> 
> Right now in Johannesburg, the World Summit is going on.  I 
> wonder what's on
> their agenda?  Who should we call?
> 
> You bring up Mark's response to my description of a Pc 
> course.  Does that
> seem like brain-washing to you?  I would only ad that most cultural
> epiphanies happen when we let go of what we're sure reality 
> is for a little
> bit, when we seen something so many times that we finally see 
> through it.
> 
> 
> Kirby Fry
> 
> For the real scoop on environmental and social justice issues 
> check out the
> archives of Democracy Now!
> http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/archive.html
> 
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