permaculture

[Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>]

At 06:31 PM 3/21/00 +0000, you wrote:


> >Permaculture, for me, is clearly laid out
> and defined in Permaculture A Designer's Manual anything
> outside of the general themes described in Bill's book needs to be
> carefully looked out before
> being added to the Permaculture Curriculum.  I know for a fact that
> Bill never intended to
> incorporate psychology, politics, or metaphysics into permaculture.
>
> But then is it right that Permaculture begins and ends with the Designers
> Manual? Surely
> Permaculture is an evolving, ever developing and changing system, just
> like a woodland, a garden or
> community development project... If we reject anything that isn't in 'The
> Sacred Text' (ho ho),
> then permaculture is nothing more than a dead, ossified system, and I'm
> sure that isn't what
> Mollison & holmgren intended... At least i hope not, they might have
> developed the initial concept,
> but there will always be space for 'pioneer species' or cutting edge
> thinkers like Carl Smith who
> are developing the concepts onwards and outwards....

I don't know who Carl Smith is but I stand by my comments that
incorporating psychology, politics, or metaphysics into permaculture is a
serious mistake and that inclusion is neither onward or outward, perhaps
upward, and downward.

> It's interesting that there seems to be a bit
> of a dichotomy between those who still see
> permaculture primarily in terms of 'PERMAnent AgriCULTURE' (ie, primarily
> about land development
> systems) and those who see it as being about wider 'PERMAnent CULTURE'
> issues, ie, how we develop
> ourselves and our cultures & communities to be truly sustainable and
> to work in harmony with with
> planet wide systems to meet our needs, not just in a physical but in a
> 'spiritual' sense...

If I could replace 'spiritual' with 'ethical' I would be infinitely more
comfortable.  Spiritual is a door you could drive a herd of
elephants through.  I also don't see how omitting 'spiritual' from
the lexicon means that we are now only talking about agriculture rather
than culture.  Spiritual is the missionaries in all of the third
world countries I have visited who teach that the existing culture is
barbaric and needs 'saving'. 

> I also sense there is a lot of suspision
> around the concept of 'spirituality', which I totally
> share, I'm as sceptical and distrustful of the whole 'New Age', crystal
> healing, rent-a-guru
> bullshit as the next person, in fact probably more so if you actually met
> me (Myk will I hope vouch
> for this!!!), because I've seen too many damaged, desperate people who've
> allowed themselves to be
> conned in the search to make sense of the craziness we live in at
> present, and seen too many sharks
> happy to take their last pound note or leech off their desperation and
> confusion. When I've used
> the term 'Spirituality' I just mean maybe acknowledging that there might
> be higher forces at work
> than we can understand or comprehend, I like Julia Cameron's defintion of
> GOD as standing for Good,
> Orderly Direction- who can argue with that as a central permaculture
> tennet- it's just the same as
> 'Work With Natutre, Not Against'- though until recently I've always
> considered myself totally an
> atheist....

Once again I am not against acknowledging 'higher forces' but to carry
that to incorporating 'hf' in the curriculum of permaculture is another
matter all together.  How do you describe 'hf' and is it your own
personal 'hf' or the universal 'hf'?  How do you work with the 'hf'
through prayer, sacrifice, or meditation?  Do we have the beginnings
of a church here?  All of this stuff is very subjective and, to my
mind, is personal and private and not easily shoehorned into a pc
course.

> Sooo, when teaching (though I prefer the word
> 'facilitating') a permaculture session, I would (do)
> introduce the concept of 'Zone 00', ie, we need to pay some attention to
> ourselves, as we are
> actually at the centre of any system, ie, we need to look after ourselves
> mentally & physically,
> make sure we have support, give support to those around us, etc, etc, but
> would leave 'Zone 6' as
> an 'optional extra', ie, maybe acknowledge there might be other realms
> out there- I think this
> whole thread started as nobody is that clear what 'Zone 6' as defined by
> Carl Smith really meant,
> and of course he is no longer on this plane to tell us, though he
> certainly seems to have laid a
> fertile seed bed for debate.....

Teach from the Old English taecan to show, instruct, cause to know
a subject.  What's wrong with teaching?  Facilitate from French
faciliter to make easier or less difficult.  Hopefully
a good teacher is a good facilitator.  I think it is implicit in
permaculture that we are limited creatures with frail psyche's and the
second ethic seems to address this adequately.  The problem is when
you start to make these things explicit and are lead into a round of
sophistry that may be counterproductive if you are teaching a design
system devoted to sustainable living.  I agree that there is
"that other" and it is part of our existence and to deny that
is as perilous as trying to teach (facilitate) it. 

> What I certainly WOULDN'T do is start spouting
> a load of New Age mumbo jumbo about crystals and
> angels and other such metaphysical gobbledegook and I'm the first to
> emphasise that permaculture is
> about common sense and good, solid, tried & tested practice.. but can
> you walk in a well designed
> (by peoplekind or by nature) and abundant garden or wood and NOT feel
> that there are perhaps other
> forces at work? We don't have to name and define them and bring them into
> the service of any
> particular dogma, just acknowledge the wonder of natural forces
> (patterns?) and be a bit humble and
> reverent...

I have never attended a pc course where this didn't happen of its own
accord, without any prompting.  And this is the heart of it all, the
very way that pc has been presented and the knowledge incorporated into
the curriculum makes magic happen without having to name it or describe
it.  I think that few people have looked at the pedagogy of the
permaculture design curriculum, in my mind it is a tour de force of the
educational process.  This was not done by accident but was the
creation of a brilliant teacher who was able to incorporate the lessons
of the visible and invisible sectors of life into a poem to the life
force, without naming it!  As a teacher I am so grateful that I had
this outline to lead me to a greater understanding of what our role as
teachers, or facilitators if that pleases you more, truly involves. 
One is humbled and reverent, without any direction, just by stepping into
an ancient forest just as one is saddened and diminished when confronted
by a clear cut.

> >What is the problem with dealing with
> those items separate from permaculture?  If people who
> attend my classes want to talk about Feng Shui, or Geomancy I tell them I
> will meet them after
> class and we can talk about it then but that neither of the topics is
> part of the Permaculture
> Design Process.  This approach has never seemed to cause any
> problems with my students.
>
> Hmmm, I've always seen the PC design course as more participatory, and
> where people are free
> (within reason) to share their stuff.. eg, a course I recently helped
> with in South London with
> Green Adventure, I led a session on 'water'- a participant on the course
> with particular knowledge
> and interest in Fung Shui wanted to contribute, so did a 20 minute slot
> outlining this area-
> personally I was sceptical, and remain so, but I think he gave a good
> overview which maybe opens up
> another direction which who am I to say isn't valid...

It is one thing to share anecdotal information during the course and
quite another to include it in the curriculum.  And there are
definitely limits such as sexism, racism, fascism, etc.

> >It seems that many who would like to
> expand permaculture to include the belief systems of the
> world take it very personally when they are met with resistance from more
> conservative and
> traditional permaculture teachers like me.  It is never a personal
> matter with me but a matter of
> keeping clear boundaries between what can be clearly demonstrated and
> replicated and those things
> that are a matter of faith or belief.
>
> No it's nothing personal at all, and I know what you mean about what can
> be demonstrated &
> replicated, but lets not throw our babies with bathwater... Of course the
> 'other' stuff shouldn't
> be allowed to dominate, but we can still make space for it, particularly
> Post 72 hour design
> course, when maybe we can start to expand and explore.... It would be
> good to chat face to face,
> but I guess that ain't too lightly what with distances (physical) between
> us...

You get absolutely no argument from me on the 'Post 72 hour design' bit -
that is primarily what this whole rave is about for me - when is it
appropriate to jump into the unknown and when is it best to just plant
your spuds.

> Cheers matey,
>
> Graham Burnett

And cheers to you too mate,
Scott