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permaculture - Re: Zone 6

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  • From: Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Zone 6
  • Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:16:00 -0700

At 06:31 PM 3/21/00 +0000, you wrote:


>Permaculture, for me, is clearly laid out and defined in Permaculture A Designer's Manual anything
outside of the general themes described in Bill's book needs to be carefully looked out before
being added to the Permaculture Curriculum.  I know for a fact that Bill never intended to
incorporate psychology, politics, or metaphysics into permaculture.

But then is it right that Permaculture begins and ends with the Designers Manual? Surely
Permaculture is an evolving, ever developing and changing system, just like a woodland, a garden or
community development project... If we reject anything that isn't in 'The Sacred Text' (ho ho),
then permaculture is nothing more than a dead, ossified system, and I'm sure that isn't what
Mollison & holmgren intended... At least i hope not, they might have developed the initial concept,
but there will always be space for 'pioneer species' or cutting edge thinkers like Carl Smith who
are developing the concepts onwards and outwards....

I don't know who Carl Smith is but I stand by my comments that incorporating psychology, politics, or metaphysics into permaculture is a serious mistake and that inclusion is neither onward or outward, perhaps upward, and downward.

It's interesting that there seems to be a bit of a dichotomy between those who still see
permaculture primarily in terms of 'PERMAnent AgriCULTURE' (ie, primarily about land development
systems) and those who see it as being about wider 'PERMAnent CULTURE' issues, ie, how we develop
ourselves and our cultures & communities to be truly sustainable and to work in harmony with with
planet wide systems to meet our needs, not just in a physical but in a 'spiritual' sense...

If I could replace 'spiritual' with 'ethical' I would be infinitely more comfortable.  Spiritual is a door you could drive a herd of elephants through.  I also don't see how omitting 'spiritual' from the lexicon means that we are now only talking about agriculture rather than culture.  Spiritual is the missionaries in all of the third world countries I have visited who teach that the existing culture is barbaric and needs 'saving'.

I also sense there is a lot of suspision around the concept of 'spirituality', which I totally
share, I'm as sceptical and distrustful of the whole 'New Age', crystal healing, rent-a-guru
bullshit as the next person, in fact probably more so if you actually met me (Myk will I hope vouch
for this!!!), because I've seen too many damaged, desperate people who've allowed themselves to be
conned in the search to make sense of the craziness we live in at present, and seen too many sharks
happy to take their last pound note or leech off their desperation and confusion. When I've used
the term 'Spirituality' I just mean maybe acknowledging that there might be higher forces at work
than we can understand or comprehend, I like Julia Cameron's defintion of GOD as standing for Good,
Orderly Direction- who can argue with that as a central permaculture tennet- it's just the same as
'Work With Natutre, Not Against'- though until recently I've always considered myself totally an
atheist....

Once again I am not against acknowledging 'higher forces' but to carry that to incorporating 'hf' in the curriculum of permaculture is another matter all together.  How do you describe 'hf' and is it your own personal 'hf' or the universal 'hf'?  How do you work with the 'hf' through prayer, sacrifice, or meditation?  Do we have the beginnings of a church here?  All of this stuff is very subjective and, to my mind, is personal and private and not easily shoehorned into a pc course.

Sooo, when teaching (though I prefer the word 'facilitating') a permaculture session, I would (do)
introduce the concept of 'Zone 00', ie, we need to pay some attention to ourselves, as we are
actually at the centre of any system, ie, we need to look after ourselves mentally & physically,
make sure we have support, give support to those around us, etc, etc, but would leave 'Zone 6' as
an 'optional extra', ie, maybe acknowledge there might be other realms out there- I think this
whole thread started as nobody is that clear what 'Zone 6' as defined by Carl Smith really meant,
and of course he is no longer on this plane to tell us, though he certainly seems to have laid a
fertile seed bed for debate.....

Teach from the Old English taecan to show, instruct, cause to know a subject.  What's wrong with teaching?  Facilitate from French faciliter to make easier or less difficult.  Hopefully a good teacher is a good facilitator.  I think it is implicit in permaculture that we are limited creatures with frail psyche's and the second ethic seems to address this adequately.  The problem is when you start to make these things explicit and are lead into a round of sophistry that may be counterproductive if you are teaching a design system devoted to sustainable living.  I agree that there is "that other" and it is part of our existence and to deny that is as perilous as trying to teach (facilitate) it.

What I certainly WOULDN'T do is start spouting a load of New Age mumbo jumbo about crystals and
angels and other such metaphysical gobbledegook and I'm the first to emphasise that permaculture is
about common sense and good, solid, tried & tested practice.. but can you walk in a well designed
(by peoplekind or by nature) and abundant garden or wood and NOT feel that there are perhaps other
forces at work? We don't have to name and define them and bring them into the service of any
particular dogma, just acknowledge the wonder of natural forces (patterns?) and be a bit humble and
reverent...

I have never attended a pc course where this didn't happen of its own accord, without any prompting.  And this is the heart of it all, the very way that pc has been presented and the knowledge incorporated into the curriculum makes magic happen without having to name it or describe it.  I think that few people have looked at the pedagogy of the permaculture design curriculum, in my mind it is a tour de force of the educational process.  This was not done by accident but was the creation of a brilliant teacher who was able to incorporate the lessons of the visible and invisible sectors of life into a poem to the life force, without naming it!  As a teacher I am so grateful that I had this outline to lead me to a greater understanding of what our role as teachers, or facilitators if that pleases you more, truly involves.  One is humbled and reverent, without any direction, just by stepping into an ancient forest just as one is saddened and diminished when confronted by a clear cut.

>What is the problem with dealing with those items separate from permaculture?  If people who
attend my classes want to talk about Feng Shui, or Geomancy I tell them I will meet them after
class and we can talk about it then but that neither of the topics is part of the Permaculture
Design Process.  This approach has never seemed to cause any problems with my students.

Hmmm, I've always seen the PC design course as more participatory, and where people are free
(within reason) to share their stuff.. eg, a course I recently helped with in South London with
Green Adventure, I led a session on 'water'- a participant on the course with particular knowledge
and interest in Fung Shui wanted to contribute, so did a 20 minute slot outlining this area-
personally I was sceptical, and remain so, but I think he gave a good overview which maybe opens up
another direction which who am I to say isn't valid...

It is one thing to share anecdotal information during the course and quite another to include it in the curriculum.  And there are definitely limits such as sexism, racism, fascism, etc.

>It seems that many who would like to expand permaculture to include the belief systems of the
world take it very personally when they are met with resistance from more conservative and
traditional permaculture teachers like me.  It is never a personal matter with me but a matter of
keeping clear boundaries between what can be clearly demonstrated and replicated and those things
that are a matter of faith or belief.

No it's nothing personal at all, and I know what you mean about what can be demonstrated &
replicated, but lets not throw our babies with bathwater... Of course the 'other' stuff shouldn't
be allowed to dominate, but we can still make space for it, particularly Post 72 hour design
course, when maybe we can start to expand and explore.... It would be good to chat face to face,
but I guess that ain't too lightly what with distances (physical) between us...

You get absolutely no argument from me on the 'Post 72 hour design' bit - that is primarily what this whole rave is about for me - when is it appropriate to jump into the unknown and when is it best to just plant your spuds.

Cheers matey,

Graham Burnett

And cheers to you too mate,
Scott


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