permaculture

[YankeePerm@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/23/97 10:19:35 AM, KirbyFry@compuserve.com wrote:

>Dan,
>
>We were talking about the Permaculture Institute because of accusatory and
>presumptuous sentiments that YOU expressed about it.  It shouldn't be too
>hard for you to realize that not everyone immediately understands or is in
>agreement with your brash outlining of what permaculture is all about.  So
>please don't get perturbed if someone asks you to explain yourself.
>
>Your description and complaint of all of these "new" permaculture
>institutes supporting Aussie teachers sounds like pure whining to me.  Your
>version of bioregionalism is getting closer to biofascism.  Who gets to
>define what "Natural" is?  Who gets to make the rules about how to behave
>in a regionally-correct manner and who gets to enforce those rules?
>
>I would much rather learn about permaculture informally in the country side
>and never see a design certificate than take one of your standardized
>competency evaluations.  For me that typifies the mental morass that the
>west is mired in... and you want MORE of it instead of less.
>
>Maybe that's what I was trying to ferret out of you, how badly do you want
>executive/private electronic mailing lists, teacher standardization,
>competency testing, design patenting, literature and logo copyrighting,
>organizational licensure, etc?  Who do you represent, surely not just the
>divine lady you harald in your signature block?
>
>Furthermore, do you really know what the these "new" permaculture
>institutes are doing or do you just spend your time fantasizing about it so
>that it suits your paradigm of who's right and who's wrong?  Why, if you
>bothered to ask US for instance we would glady tell you what we're up to,
>but somehow it seems too late for that.
>
>        KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX;
>512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/]


Kirby:

Again you are misleading, quoting falsely, and putting words into my mouth.
 I had no need to go into my  concerns about these organizations, which
mainly comes down to the fact that they are imposed from above without
reference to whether the mainstream of permaculturists wants them and and
whether they get a choice as to who runs them.  For wanting to see inclusive
instead of dictatorial processes, you stated implied that I said permaculture
would be just fine if we did not cooperate with one another.  However, it
seems to me that imposing an organization rather than consulting the 2500
permaculture intelligent adult permaculture design course graduates who may
indeed have opinions on the matter.  You are right that I did not understand
that there were two organizations.  Since I am pretty well plugged in to
permaculture communictoins, this just indicates that this was an accomplished
fact before anyone had a chance to be consulted.  There are people who will
like this hierachical arrangement and who will participate.   OK.  

Regretfully, I was dead wrong when I concluded your inquiry about my views
was a sincere question.  Obviously you have been disingenuous from the start,
using my impulse to answer sincere questions to entrap me in you flame war.  

I would not have answered this post except that you have committed the sin
that you accuse me of.  (again)  You claim to understand my course and
criticize it in public on false premises.  We have no standardized tests.  We
do have standards.  There is a difference.  Everyone in any of our courses
must make a strong contribuation to a permaculture design.  In our online
course, where collaboration and cooperation among the students on a design is
not practical, each student completes his/her design.  This is the major
criterion, though there are others.  This gives me a chance to evaluate the
student's comprehension of what constitutes a permaculture design.  The
designs themselves are obviously NOT standardized--they must be site specific
and student specific, though if a standard solution to a problem within the
design exists, we don't require students to reinvent the wheel.  We work with
every student to help get the design up to par--our goal is to graduate
people, not to deny them certification.  
        The standards pertain to course content, the course reading list, 
time spent
in instruction, and a minimum competency for a student design.  We hardly
expect professional designs from beginning students, though we are often
pleasantly surprised.  We do not expect every student, or even most students,
to become professional designers.  I have concerns about making people
dependant on permaculturists as designers--again I opt for inclusiveness,
giving people opportunities for self-empowerment by learning design whenever
possible and practical.  And I'm no purist--I see a need for some consulting
too, but far less than teaching, at least for me.  Our evaluation of a
student's application for certification always takes into account the amount
of growth we've seen and the proclivities of the student.  I recall one case
where a student's design work was just a series of questions.  It was awful as
 design, but as a teaching instrument it was good and as a teaching
instrument it indicated that he had a good grasp of the concept of
permaculture design.  There was no problem in passing him.
        I've no problem with advanced diplomas if they are given out on the 
basis of
merit rather than rewards for irrelevant services or tokens of friendship.  I
say this holding 5 myself, and having seen the lack of standards, wondering
if they are worth the space in the file cabinet.  If the advanced diplomas
will be indication of merit rather than rewards for playing ball with the
appointed leadership, the effort is worthwhile.  There are still risks in
adopting the corporate form, all the more so since you don't seem to
acknowledge them.

It seems to me that you can announce the merits of these sundry organizations
without trying to draw me into an arguement.  I don't think promoting
dissention is a way to strengthen the permaculture movement.  However, when
you attack my course with misinformation, I have to respond in public.

You must realize that by being created as a form of decree rather than by
agreement among a significant fraction of the movement, there will be many
permaculturists who choose not to participate or who participate very warily.
 Rather than make an issue about this difference, your cause would be better
served by simply announcing what God hath wroth, so to speak, and what it is
intended to do in a bit more detail.  Who knows, maybe I'll want to join.  Do
members get a vote?

For the second time, Kirby, give it a rest.  And if you are incapable of
that, try to separate your arguments from personal attacks, please.  It
doesn't do permaculture any good.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking.