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Subject: Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion on Walker Percy

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  • From: Jim Wesson <gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com>
  • To: David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu>,<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
  • Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:17:07 -0800 (PST)

david,
thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have noticed
,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that we
often make the most sense. or at least i do .
life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i came up
with was to change my reading group from Faulkner to
p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision.
peace to all,
jim
i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as
having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. both
can be read on a light level also,and that's what i
have to do. they are the most to say the least!




--- David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu> wrote:
> Jim,
> I think you are missing the point. If you look at
> malls, pop culture in
> general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic
> attractions--in the Kierkegaardian
> sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer for
> where WE are. Bailie's
> comment I think stands. What is particularly
> dangerous is not what is
> obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what lulls
> us to sleep by its
> "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized
> environment--to me, that is
> closer to Percy's use of despair than the more
> obvious, sensational event
> like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and
> Bailie) symbolic with what
> is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing,
> seductive, and meaningless.
> Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no
> introspection, no search is
> necessary. It's all here, self-contained.
> Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of being
> and having is right on
> target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall
> included--but if we are
> seduced (and I often am)into thinking that "having"
> is being or even a way
> to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, if
> the mall is part of our
> search, then that's ok, as long as we see that the
> true beauty and mystery
> lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, etc. In
> other words, I'm not
> making the sacred/profane distiction; the mystery is
> everywhere, making
> the search possible no matter where we are.)
> I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense?
> -David
>
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote:
>
> > lord, many things worse than malls.
> > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they?
> >
> > jim
> > --- David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go
> through
> > > my mind: kitsch and
> > > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go
> > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie
> > > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism.
> > > -DB
> > >
> > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus AT loyno.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in
> any
> > > shopping mall that 90%
> > > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques
> is
> > > congealed
> > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")?
> > > >
> > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by
> our
> > > leaders to try to buy our
> > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their
> > > (our?) preparations for mass
> > > > murder?
> > > >
> > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after
> Ash
> > > Wednesday.
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Smith
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos,
> too.
> > > > >
> > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and
> > > violent; or rather,
> > > > sentimental
> > > > >therefore violoent.
> > > > >
> > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward
> > > violence is not due to a
> > > > focused
> > > > >ideological rage or fury but something much
> less
> > > interesting --banality.
> > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike
> insanity
> > > that masquerades not just
> > > > as
> > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on
> reality,
> > > a sort of banal utopic
> > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the
> case
> > > that when a man's (or
> > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or
> even
> > > destroyed, either
> > > > >internally or externally, the violence of his
> > > response is magnified in
> > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the
> vision
> > > was away from reality.
> > > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered.
> Maybe
> > > its the dissapointment
> > > > that
> > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own
> > > relationships. Once, after
> > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her
> eventual
> > > wedding day, I remarked on
> > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she
> was
> > > setting up an unlikely
> > > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and
> > > cutting).
> > > > >
> > > > >Sound right?
> > > > >
> > > > >SP
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Jim Wesson
> [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com]
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM
> > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > > Discussion
> > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas
> chamber..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced
> > > labor
> > > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much
> tenderness.
> > > > >there is tenderness all over.
> > > > > jim w.( can not back this up
> philosophically
> > > etc.
> > > > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net>
> wrote:
> > > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came
> from
> > > her
> > > > >> originally, as Allen and
> > > > >> Robert said.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for
> > > MaryAnn"
> > > > >> reads...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we
> govern by
> > > > >> tenderness. It is
> > > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from
> the
> > > person
> > > > >> of Christ, is wrapped
> > > > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached
> from
> > > the
> > > > >> source of tenderness, its
> > > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It
> > > ends in
> > > > >> forced labor camps and
> > > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227
> > > Mystery and
> > > > >> Manners).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying
> the
> > > same
> > > > >> thing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> KP
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
>
=== message truncated ===


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>From piat1 AT bellsouth.net Thu Mar 6 20:35:46 2003
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From: "James Piat" <piat1 AT bellsouth.net>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <1ca.47cf454.2b9932ab AT aol.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls..."
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:30:47 -0500
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=20
From: Tpmonaghan AT aol.com=20
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org=20
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:24 PM
Subject: [percy-l] "...problem is not moral relativism, shopping =
malls..."

If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he stop. I mean after =
all, is that too much to ask.

>> Ha, but that it were that easy. But I take your point my good =
fellow. "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of =
passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us in the Second Coming.>> =20


Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt for, should =
likewise stop their misbehaving.

>> So, on this we agree? (one small quibble though -- I don't =
assume guilt for any but myself)>>

From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" absolves =
me or protects me or elevates me.=20

>> Well in the larger sense it doesn't work from my perspective =
either, but alas, I'm a slow learner. I find confession good for my =
soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming and posturing =
than confessing.>>=20

The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves from =
dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would =
deliver it, and that is a question. However, pondering one's vague =
politically correct "sins" is not the answer. Such action will elevate =
one in certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank =
sentimentalism that will result in a higher body count for everyone.

>> I agree we are all in danger, but the dilema I was trying to =
wrestle with is how to do protect ourselves while at the same time =
taking seriously the notions of "do no evil" and "turn the other cheek", =
and "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". As you noticed, blaming, =
posturing and expressing my sentiments come easy to me. Understanding =
and following the teaching of Jesus is the part I find difficult. One =
side of me says I'm right -- another I'm wrong.>>=20

Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is =
permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the =
answer, there is no problem. In fact, there isn't even a question.

>> Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is that maybe our =
interpretation of absolutes is relative to our circumstances. Can we =
presume to truly understand the motivation of another whose =
circumstances we do not share? Is there truly only one correct =
interpretation of God's word? No room for disagreement among God =
fearing folks? Seems to me such a views fails both of Percy tests -- =
individual souls can not be encompassed by theoretical universals nor =
are one's individual sentiments a trustworthy test of truth.>>

Thanks for your comments -- I hope you are right. =20

Best wishes,
Jim Piat



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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2723.2500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DTpmonaghan AT aol.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Tpmonaghan AT aol.com";>Tpmonaghan AT aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dpercy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org";>percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2003 =
6:24=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [percy-l] "...problem =
is not=20
moral relativism, shopping malls..."</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =

FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =

FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">If the problem is really Mr. Piatt, I suggest he=20
stop.&nbsp; I mean after all, is that too much to ask.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Ha,&nbsp; but that it were&nbsp;that easy.&nbsp; =
But I=20
take your point my good fellow.&nbsp;&nbsp; "The best lack all =
conviction,=20
while the worst are full of passionate intensity", as Yeats warns us =
in the=20
Second Coming.&gt;&gt;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; Also all those in the "us" he blames and assumes guilt =
for, should=20
likewise stop their misbehaving.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; So, on this we agree?&nbsp; (one small quibble=20
though&nbsp; -- I don't assume guilt for any but myself)&gt;&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; From my perspective, I fail to see how "blaming the other" =

absolves me or protects me or elevates me. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Well in the larger sense it doesn't work&nbsp;from =
my=20
perspective either, but alas, I'm a slow learner. &nbsp;I find =
confession good=20
for my soul but the trouble is I often end up doing more blaming=20
and&nbsp;posturing than confessing.&gt;&gt; </DIV>
<DIV><BR>The problem we face now is one of how to defend ourselves =
from=20
dictators who cultivate smallpox as a weapon and individuals who would =
deliver=20
it, and that is a question.&nbsp; However, pondering one's vague =
politically=20
correct "sins" is not the answer.&nbsp; Such action will elevate one =
in=20
certain circles as they posture humility, but it is a rank =
sentimentalism that=20
will result in a higher body count for everyone.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; =
I agree=20
we are all in danger, but the&nbsp;dilema &nbsp;I was trying to=20
wrestle&nbsp;with&nbsp;is how to do&nbsp;protect ourselves&nbsp;while =
at the=20
same time taking seriously&nbsp;the notions of "do no evil" and "turn =
the=20
other cheek", and "vengeance is mine sayeth the&nbsp;Lord".&nbsp; As =
you=20
noticed, blaming, posturing and expressing my sentiments&nbsp;come =
easy to=20
me.&nbsp; Understanding and following the teaching of Jesus is the =
part I find=20
difficult. One side of me says I'm right&nbsp; -- another I'm =
wrong.&gt;&gt;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Without God, the moral absolute, there are no values and all is=20
permitted, as has been observed by others. If moral relativism is the =
answer,=20
there is no problem.&nbsp; In fact, there isn't even a question.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Perhaps, but the point I was trying to suggest is =
that=20
maybe our interpretation of absolutes is relative to our=20
circumstances.&nbsp;&nbsp;Can we presume to truly understand the =
motivation of=20
another whose circumstances we do not share?&nbsp; Is there truly only =
one=20
correct interpretation of God's word?&nbsp; No room for disagreement =
among God=20
fearing folks?&nbsp; Seems to me such a views fails&nbsp;both of Percy =

tests&nbsp; -- individual souls&nbsp;can not =
be&nbsp;encompassed&nbsp;by=20
theoretical universals nor are one's individual=20
sentiments&nbsp;a&nbsp;trustworthy test of truth.&gt;&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your comments&nbsp; -- I hope you are right. &nbsp; =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Best wishes,</DIV>
<DIV>Jim Piat</DIV>
<DIV><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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