Mounted search and rescue

["Hill, Victoria L." <Victoria.L.Hill@saint-gobain.com>]

My goodness you people are vicious.......I have learned a great deal of
things on here...but this is not how to act.  Attacking folks for
voicing their opinion on what they believe is right for the good of
their group in their respective area is nonproductive, people who talk
down by throwing their "I have this, I have that, blah blah blah" is
very condescending.  While I would like to continue to learn and grow my
group with the knowledge that is abundant here I am afraid you have
reached new heights of childish behaviors.  You should hear
yourselves!!!!  It's down right embarrassing.  I realize you can only
"voice" your experiences from your respective states that you reside in
but we all don't live in New Mexico or Pennsylvania.  What is right for
you may not be correct or right for us and unless you are intimately
familiar with each state's requirements for whatever task is being
performed how can you say what is right or wrong!

Good luck in all your endeavors to become better responders for the
common good. After all, that IS what we are all striving for isn't it?

-----Original Message-----
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Una Smith
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:54 AM
To: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR Standards

What DHS grants?  Who here is getting DHS grants?  Raise your hands!

National level credentials sounds scary until you realize they would
reflect LOWER qualifications than state and local credentials.  Unless
you're talking about "elite" SAR teams, in which case very few teams
will ever come anywhere close to that level nor need to be at that level
(else it isn't elite).

Even now, within a state or smaller area, some teams are more highly
qualified than others and will be called longer distances than others.
Does that mean those are the only teams worth calling?  No.  When we
need lots of searchers we need lots of searchers and we need most of
them for tasks that are not challenging, merely time consuming.

Dion wrote:
>If NASAR is the only agency providing a national level testing

NASAR is not an agency.  NASAR testing is not national level, unless
"national level" means nothing more than available in multiple states.

An example of how NASAR isn't the answer is the infamous leaf bag in the
24hr pack list.  What is a leaf bag?  A national hardware store
franchise sells leaf bags, with the words "leaf bag" printed on them.
A leaf bag is a brown paper bag, like a giant size paper grocery bag,
designed to turn to mush when wet.  NASAR got that list from someone,
and similar lists are all over the internet.  Here are some examples:

http://www.squadron601.us/blog/?p=72
http://ct022.ctwg.cap.gov/files/ES_pack_list.doc
http://www.mountainpathfinder.com/FUNSARpacklist.pdf
http://newyorksearchandrescue.org/download/SAR%20Ready%20Pack.pdf
http://www.scesar.org/html/NASAR_SARTECHTM_II_MINIMUM_PERSONAL_EQUIPMENT
_LIST_11_2004.pdf
http://www.1srg.org/Contributed-Materials/PackLists/Walter.htm

Outside these lists, I have never read or heard "leaf bag" used to mean
the plastic bags SAR people and other outdoors people pack as a matter
of course.  The bags we pack we often call "bin liners" and black
plastic trash (garbage) bags and garbage can liners etc.  Not leaf bags.

Dion wrote:
>Either way, the future is for
>National level or State level credentialing, just like all the other 
>public safety responders.

Some states already have state level credentialing.  New Mexico is one
of them, and I hold some of the SAR credentials recognized in New
Mexico.  Some other credentials are well within my reach but I choose
not to take them, since I have no plan at this time to put them to use.
For me, it is not okay to seek out and get any and all available
training and credentials.  I have only so much time in my life, and
training and credentials are wasted if not put to good use.

New Mexico has a legal basis for its authority to regulate SAR in the
state.  Many states do not have that.

If some state with such authority wants to mandate use of NASAR
products, that's for them to decide.  However, as far as I know, not one
state that has such authority has mandated use of NASAR products.


Dion wrote:
>                                 However, as soon as you step over your

>county line to respond, you'll become required to comply with the 
>higher level credentials.

Jorene Downs has stated much the same idea.  Dion, did you get it from
her or did she get it from you?  Where did you get it?  It sure is odd,
and I'd really like to know where it comes from.

What makes you think a national requirement is a higher requirement than
a state requirement, and that a state requirement is higher than a
county requirement?

In most situations, the opposite is true.  Building codes are a good
example.  National requirements for many construction practices and
building products are lower than state and local requirements.  Why?
Because some states have safety concerns that are not important in other
states.  Some states are prone to hurricanes or tornadoes or earthquakes
or wildfire or flooding or ice storms or hail storms.
Others are not.  That is why national standards are LOWER than state and
county and city standards.

In New Mexico all SAR responders need to know a little about deserts and
rattlesnakes.  Those are of no concern in New Hampshire.  Teams in
midwestern states generally need to know a lot about searching in and
around agricultural fields.  That is of little concern in New Mexico.
Teams in mountain states need to know about avalanches and altitude
sickness and coping with deep snow.  Teams in Florida have no such need.
Is a national standard supposed to satisfy minimum requirements in all
states?  If so, then few or no teams will ever meet that standard in
practice.  They may read and hear information and pass tests, but they
won't have the experiential knowledge that comes from living and working
in all these different environments.

I see a lot of great things happening in many states now to raise the
quality and quantity of training available to SAR responders.
For the most part there are no fees involved for either the teams or the
individual responders.  I think that is a very good thing.

I see a lot of progress on MSAR-Riders too.  Many, many readers here now
have a far broader and clearer view of MSAR and other SAR specialties as
well.  And because of this, our teams are getting more and better
training.

        Una Smith
        New Mexico
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