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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Comment on Jeavon's Work

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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  • From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org, emitch@att.net
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Comment on Jeavon's Work
  • Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:23:09 -0700


Ok, Mitch, I take your word he said what he said in your 7th edition. But
he didn't say you need ten hours a day to produce all your own food. So
what's 4,000 sq ft for? His 4,000 sq ft includes a complete diet, not just
vegetables, AND includes enough space to grow all your compost crops etc.
to do without any outside inputs. You don't have to repeat his experiment.

Look at this: In his 1991 edition on page 70 he states about "5-10 minutes
a day to maintain a 100-square foot area--an area large enough to provide
one person with vegetables 12 months a year in an area with a 4-6 month
growing season" (though he adds a beginner may need 200 sq ft before their
soil and skills are fully developed).

If 5-10 minutes a day can grow a year's worth of vegetables in 6 months in
one 100 sq ft bed, then why would you need 39 more beds? Sure, you might
want a little more space to grow things besides vegetables (fruits, nuts,
dairy goats etc.), but applying the system demonstrated at Ecology Action,
40 such beds would provide 40 people with vegetables for a year.

IF you repeat his example (including enough space to grow all your compost
crops etc. to do without any outside inputs) you still won't spend ten
hours a day on it, because he didn't (compost crops, grains, and forage
don't need daily maintenance). Jeavons was big on proving you can produce
all your own inputs and compost crops without outside inputs - a self
contained growing system. He estimated 4,000 sq ft is needed to do that.
But why would you, when so much valuable organic matter goes to waste all
over the country, from restaurant garbage to animal manure? Why? So if you
don't obsess with producing all your soil inputs onsite then you don't need
anywhere near 4,000 sq ft, obviously.

I wouldn't dream of trying to produce all my own soil inputs onsite just
because Jeavons does it, when so much organic waste needs to be recycled
around here. I have nothing against outside inputs that recycle organic
waste. And I think that is the big picture of global agricultural
sustainability you mention. Food growers around the world have been
recycling local waste and replenishing their soil for millennia. And not
working ten hours a day at it, I might add. To me, this way is easier and
more realistic than any other way.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 3/22/2007 at 6:19 AM E. E. Mitchamore Jr wrote:

>7th edition, page 24: "Approximately 40 beds (4,000) sq ft) for 1
>person." To be "sustainable", meaning without fertilizer or energy input
>from outside the farm.
>7th edition, page 29: ""...it only takes an average of 15 minutes or less
>each day per bed to maintain the garden".
>That's 10 hr. per day. AFTER the (40) beds and soil are in good
>condition! And that is REALLY beyond my capacity.
>
>I'm not disagreeing with his methods or success, just expressing my own
>limits. It's all very interesting and useful information, but that's what
>he says. The alternative is to continue using outside inputs of
>fertilizer and/or energy. I believe the new edition is looking at the
>bigger picture of global agricultural sustainability.
>
>E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
>www.hillcountrynatives.biz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TradingPostPaul
> To: emitch@att.net ; livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Comment on Jeavon's Work
>
>
>
> Hey, if Jeavons actually meant biointensive would take working 10
>hr./day,
> every day, just for food, he would have been dismissed as a crank years
> ago. Obviously that's a misreading, perhaps taking his statements out of
> context. Bottom line: if his biointensive took such a ridiculous amount
>of
> time and labor, the book would never have gone through so many editions,
>or
> been translated into many other languages, or sold more copies than just
> about any other gardening book in print today.
>
> I think a fair comparison would be to compare biointensive to
>conventional
> row cropping of vegetables. How much daily time does it take to grow the
> same amount of produce by conventional methods? Figure it takes an
>average
> 20,000 to 40,000 sq ft to grow the same amount as biointensive grows on
> 4,000 sq ft. If you can't take care of 4,000 sq ft, you'll never handle
> 20,000 to 40,000 sq ft of garden alone.
>
> I have his 1991 edition. On page 70 he states about "5-10 minutes a day
>to
> maintain a 100-square foot area--an area large enough to provide one
>person
> with vegetables 12 months a year in an area with a 4-6 month growing
> season." But what's involved in the "maintaining"? Hand watering?
>Planting
> and harvesting? You can take ten minutes just getting to and from the
> garden and inspecting it. And of course, the other 6-8 months of the
year
> in that climate don't have any plants to "maintain". And you're figuring
> that 40 such beds would take 40 times as much time as a single 100-sq ft
> bed, which doesn't hold. With more beds you'd be using some time and
>labor
> saving devices such as drip irrigation etc. with economies of scale.
>
> I don't see 4,000 sq ft of beds required to feed each person (40 x 100
>sq.
> ft beds) in my 1991 edition. I have to assume that 4,000 sq ft would
have
> to include all food consumed by one person, meat, fruit, and grains in
> addition to vegetables. If so, then at least fruit and grains shouldn't
> take much time to "maintain" all year
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> "John's methods are nothing short of miraculous" -- Alice Waters, from
>the
> forward in How To Grow More Vegetables, Jeavons.
>
> And from Bob Bergland, former Secretary of Agriculture, quoted in the
>same
> book, "The Jeavons approach has done more to solve poverty and misery
>than
> anything else we've done".
> http://www.growbiointensive.org/publications_main.html#comments
>
> "it takes commercial agriculture 22,000 to 42,000 square feet to grow
all
> the food for one person for one year, while bringing in large inputs
from
> other areas."
> http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC42/Jeavons.htm
>
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 3/21/2007 at 9:10 PM E. E. Mitchamore Jr wrote:
>
> >In order to properly consider all approaches to intensive gardening,
I'm
> >reading Ecology Action's How to Grow more Vegetables...... In one
place
> >it indicates their research shows 4,000 sq ft of beds required to feed
> >each person (40 x 100 sq. ft beds). In a different place in the book,
>it
> >indicates "only" 15 minutes per day to maintain each bed, once they are
> >properly prepared. I woke up this morning realizing that is 10
hr./day,
> >every day, just for food. I can't do that.
> >
> >E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
> >www.hillcountrynatives.biz
> >








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