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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Not amused/ was another picture of humus growingin Arizona

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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  • From: "rfreez" <rfreez14@netzero.net>
  • To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Not amused/ was another picture of humus growingin Arizona
  • Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:35:02 -0500

I'm probably going to try Melendez's potion, but I agree that we need to haul organic debris to our farms. I hoard the leaves from my neighborhood, and I make about 80 trips to a horse farm every year (sure wish I had a bigger truck!). I take the bagged leaves that I hoarded from my idiot neighbors, rip open the bags, and make an 18 inch fluffy pile of leaves, then I seal the top and sides of the pile with horse manure.

My ground (it can't be called soil) is New England red clay. The topsoil was scraped off by the $%@!ing developers who built my house. So I'm rebuilding this land from scratch. I'm willing to try anything, including Melendez's nostrum, and I will report back with brutal honesty about 2 years after I use his product. I will report on his product with both text and pictures. I'll give it 2 years, and I will only use it on a parcel of my land, and keep another part as a "control" parcel.

By the way, I do some onsite composting. I have a three pronged fork hoe thingy I got from Ace Hardware, and it works great to pull up scrub grasses jutting out of clay. I pile up the scrub grasses, and make a layer cake with either horse manure or chicken manure. It's interesting to watch the piles descend and descend as thermophilic composting happens.

I understand what Melendez is saying when he says, "hauling in compost is unsustainable," but I disagree. There will always be some form of compost available, even if it's the rotting corpses of our fellow man. Just make sure you have a sturdy wheelbarrow.

So you see, it's a self regulating system.

Rob

----- Original Message ----- From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
To: <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:53 AM
Subject: [Livingontheland] Not amused/ was another picture of humus growingin Arizona



Nice you're amused; I'm not. Tell us, how much time and money has she
spent on her CSA over the last fifteen years, and how much has she grossed?
I'm curious how you would be able to know what she's spent, or verify she's
seen a dime of profit on that basis. We should also ask *how much* food
those 15 families are getting, since we're not told. You'll forgive me if I
don't get excited about it.

You said below:
"The hauling of soil to a site or even scavenging for course organic
debris off site to try and make compost is contradictive to
sustainability. It simply does not work! The only solution is to grow
humus on site and not by using compost as the food source. I know it
works because I've done it thousands of times on many sites."

But you said nothing would grow on her soil to begin with. Are you now
claiming she "grew humus" onsite in that dead dirt - and then used that to
build up good topsoil? Something from nothing? Did I miss anything?

I hate to break this to you, Dr. Melendrez, but tons of organic waste of
all kinds are available for free most anywhere in this country, and failing
to make good use of it for organic soil improvement cannot be sustainable.
You claim that doesn't work. Are we on the same planet? What's wrong with
composting what would otherwise go to waste? The ONLY solution is to "grow
humus onsite"? Why?

Sixty years ago, after a lifetime of experimentation and research, Sir
Albert Howard urged returning all organic wastes to the soil to build and
maintain fertility. He built humus-rich soil with the mycorrhyzal
association in several countries, back in the early part of the century.
And he didn't need to buy expensive biological products to do it. He
literally ignited the modern organic movement. I don't believe that doesn't
work. Maybe you'd like to rethink your claims.

We know that people throughout the world have used organic wastes to enrich
their growing areas and keep them fertile for centuries. Most notably
perhaps, Asian farmers in F.H. King's Farmers of Forty Centuries. I expect
the Rodales would have been surprised to learn hauling in compost materials
is not sustainable, as well as the millions who've been doing exactly that.


I might be interested in your "Soil Secrets" products if I were growing a
golf course, but I'm not.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/6/2006 at 12:49 AM Soilsecrets@aol.com wrote:

Paul,

I'm very amused by your comments and concerns as I can tell you that one
of
the objectives of what we do as scientists and consultants in such
projects
are to minimize the expenses and not sink the project in Red Ink. In
Kim's
case she is very much in the black and is one of the most prudent
individuals I
have ever met when it comes to spending money. The project covers 15,000

sq. ft. and is feeding 15 families with nutritious, organic produce.
That's
pretty exciting considering the sites original condition.

On the other hand my whole mission is to focus on sustainable factors
minimizing energy efforts into such projects. The hauling of soil to a
site or
even scavenging for course organic debris off site to try and make
compost is
contradictive to sustainability. It simply does not work! The only
solution
is to grow humus on site and not by using compost as the food source. I
know
it works because I've done it thousands of times on many sites.

Dr. Michael M. Melendrez


"Great ideas go through three phases, first they are ignored, then they
are
ridiculed and than they are considered intuitively obvious to anyone who
is
knowledgeable"





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