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[Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>]

2000 watts is not going to going to provide much electricity.  That is 2k for 
an entire day.  There are some "solar generators" available for low cost that 
provide that kind of KW.  They are similar to a backup gas generator for 
short power outages, except instead of an engine they have a deep cycle 
battery, and a solar panel.  The ones I've seen have wheels and a handle to 
make moving them around easy.



Step one look at your monthly bill, and divide by 30 days to find out your 
avg KWH usage.

KW and KWH aren't the same, as some appliances use a fairly steady amount of 
KW per hour, and others cycle on and off throughout the day (i.e. a 
refrigerator).  

Coffee pots are electricity hogs.  Microwave ovens use more wattage, but 
often it is just for a few minutes at a time.

Heating, hot water, stovetop cooking most refrigeration, isn't cost efficient 
on solar.  

Solar Oven is one economical change that can be made (about $225 bux), but 
requires a lifestyle change.
Think of it as a solar crock pot.... although oven temps can get to 400 
degrees, for baking, etc.


The least expensive set up is to grid-tie, so that you are feeding any unused 
electiricy back to the power co, and you get a credit on your bill, or an 
actual check.

Odds do not favor electricity prices getting lower, so today's price for 
solar is relative to today's cost per KWH, but not against tomorrow's 
increased cost of KWH.  

Google used solar systems for sale.  There are a number of people who are 
cash strapped who are selling entire systems.  


 

I too would love to get into this, but the costs are so high. Does anyone 
have sources for less expensive voltaics? What's a practical/optimum setup 
for generating 1800 to 2000 watts? There are a lot of resources on the web, 
but which ones work?

Tim
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________________________________

From: Tim Oppenheim <timopp AT gmail.com>
To: mark AT transvantage.com; homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 12:29:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Shaking the grid




>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 14:40:20 2010
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From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
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Little by little, I'm getting off-grid, as I have an ongoing solar project 
going on.


Alternative to candles for lights:  Pick up some of those solar patio lights. 
 Charge them outside during the day, bring them in at night.
Inexpensive alternative to water heater in climates that don't freeze for too 
long overnight:  One of those camping shower sacks.  They are inexpensive at 
Walmart.

Another alternative cooking in addition to fireplace cooking:  a Solar Oven 
(get the one that reaches 400 degrees).  Another one is to build a parabolic 
reflector to heat (google parabolic oven or parabolic cooking).    

Water:  You can pasteurize water with solar heating, btw.  Even in the 
winter, these ovens get hot !!

Heat:  Thanks to a post from Bev, I discovered I do not need heat, just extra 
blankets and a wool hat on my head if I think indoor temps are going under 35 
(only once so far, I don't have much insulation).  I haven't even gotten a 
runny nose, and now when I go outside there is so little temperature change I 
don't notice it is cold unless it is wet or windy.  Temps outside have been 
as low as 18 degrees, without me heating.  This did however require a 
lifestyle change, as in nightly shutting down the water and then partially 
draining out the water lines so they don't freeze/crack, and stocking up some 
toilet water and coffee pot water, and extra water in a jug to wash hands 
etc.  It takes all of 3 minute a night to do this.

Therefore, a full 500 gallon LP tank if only used sparingly in the kitchen 
for cooking and doing dishes, and for limited water heating in the winter, 
will last a very long time, if not wasted on heating the home.

Toilet water:  He he,,, If things get really crazy,,,, you can make an 
outhouse (over and connected to the septic tank pipe) , and install an 
RV/Boat type toilet for esthetic reasons if you want.  You can use next to no 
water in those.



The biggest challenge I'm coming up with at the moment is trying to figure 
out how to pressure can without the gas stovetop.  I have a portable 
elecgtric single burner for emergencies, presuming electricity of course.  I 
haven't calculated out how much additional stored solar power I would need 
generate per day to have enough on hand every day during canning season.  
It's on the to do list....

Pressure canning can be done on top of a wood burning stove - my granny used 
to do that all the time.  I don't have a nearby wood supply for that though, 
so I don't want to count on that.


Living without power isn't so bad.  The longest I was without power was for 
over 4 months after Hurricane Andrew,  (I no longer live in that area).  We 
used a generator to fill the water tank from the well, and to power the 
fridge.  We didn't bother with using the power for lights, but did run the TV 
for an hour at night for the news.  We used a coleman stove to cook, as well 
as a BBQ.  Hot water to do dishes was heated on the leftover coals on the 
BBQ.  Showers were cold, but S. FL water isn't as cold as up north..  When we 
finally were able to get an LP tank, we connected it to the gas BBQ and 
cooked off of that.  When we finally did get electricity back it took us 
weeks to remember to do things like turn on the lights.  


Refrigeration and pulling up the well water were the 2 biggies.... the 2 
major necessities, as was fuel for cooking.  I did miss my computer.  But it 
was a relief not to have a phone for 4 months (cell towers were also down) !



________________________________
From: Mark Stutzman <mark AT transvantage.com>
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 12:07:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Shaking the grid

I'm in the same boat as you, Robert.  I just joined this list a few days 
ago (hi, everyone) in order to increase my knowledge of homesteading 
skills.  I'm not sure if I'll ever get to the point where I'm a true, 
off-the-grid homesteader, but I'm interested in learning as much as 
possible, as I've little to no faith that our government is going to get 
it's act together regarding our reliance on unsustainable (read: fossil 
fuel) energy before it becomes cost-prohibitive for all but the super-rich.

Currently, I'm concentrating on food production and storage, rather than 
energy, simply due cost.  The garden is currently a small, "square foot" 
garden, which I will expand a little every year.  I started canning 
things last summer.  Gathering wild edibles.  This winter I hope to 
build a couple of beehives.  The list goes on.

My preparations for if the power goes out have so far been limited to 
stockpiling a bunch of water, both potable for drinking/cooking, and 
non-potable in old kitty litter jugs for topping off the toilet tank or 
heating on the woodstove for bathing.  I also installed a fireplace 
crane, so I can hang a dutch oven over the fire, and picked up a 
replacement grill grate, so I can grill in the fireplace.  Someday I'll 
weld up a support rack for it, but it works OK now, just resting on a 
couple of chunks of firewood.  So, now  we can cook and bathe by 
candlelight or a propane lantern, and sleep in relative comfort by the 
woodstove, if the power goes out.

It's easy to get lost as to where to start if all you can see is 
"off-the-grid homesteading" as a goal.  You might try breaking it up 
into many smaller goals, and then tackling them one by one (make lists, 
and cross things off as you complete them).  The smaller the chunks you 
are able to break something up into, the easier it becomes to find 
somewhere to start, and see progress toward the ultimate goal.  I 
consider my power loss prep to be Phase 1.  We can be comfortable 
without power for a few days.  Of course, now that I've accomplished 
Phase 1, we haven't lost power this winter at all (so far).

-mark

Robert Walton wrote:
> I'm not an off grid homesteader. Sometimes I wonder if I'd even make
> it into the homestead category, if it existed and had a hard
> definition. I just do my own thing and like to be self sufficient.
> Like not having a wood burner that needs electric power, etc.
>
> Some of my plans for losing power are just to not really need external
> power. Just keep it an optional thing.
>
> I'm reconsidering this a bit. I'd like to create some power so that I
> could lose external power and still keep some of my basic electrical
> things going. Lights for sure. Maybe the well pump.
>
> Is anyone off grid here or partially off grid? I'm really kind of lost
> as to where to start.
>
> Rob - Va
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>
>
>  

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>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 14:52:21 2010
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So true.  One neighbor here has one solar system just for his house that 
isn't tied to the grid, and a completely a separate solar set up that 
strictly feeds into the grid (not the house) for cash generation....  
allegedly he's getting an 8% return on investment.  When the power company 
raises rates, his return also goes up.

Another neighbor is also 100% off-grid, they built one of those igloo shaped 
homes.  I see 3 solar panels for the house, and 2 for the deep water well 
(~300 feet).  They do have a small windmill, but it isn't up high enough, and 
overall this isn't a consistent wind area.



________________________________

From: sjc <indexer AT fairpoint.net>
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 10:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Shaking the grid

A lot of people here now seem to have been sold on setting up their 
system to run the meter backward with their excess, but the idea of 
buying extra capacity to sell (at wholesale) to the power boys, and then 
not have power when the grid goes down, leaves me a bit chilly.....

SJ




>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 15:12:04 2010
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From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
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For my first garden last year, I spent the winter months learning about how 
many row feet to plant to yield enough food for a year, of each various type.
 
Looks like I planted enough potatoes, garlic, dried beans, pumpkins, squash, 
tomatoes, cucumbers and various melons, green beans, pickles, peppers hot & 
sweet, edible sunflower seeds, and carrots to last me a year, and for some 
things, more than a year.  I need to double or triple the amount of onions, 
and a do a better job getting some of the things to actually grow, and keep 
some of the the hungry critters out.
 
This year I'm doubling the garden size, as I suspect I'll need to have extras 
on hand for my elderly parents - if not there are local markets that buy up 
excess production.  Plus i'm going to try to increas the variety and trying 
to figure out better planting dates for some items, like peas, lettuce, etc. 
since I'm in the southern desert.  As weather permits I'm hauling in manure 
from a local dairy and some of the neighboring horse farms, and spreading 
that out for later tilling into the soil.  I also seem to spend a lot of time 
actually laying out the garden in advance, looking up what can be planted 
next to what.
 
Also, I need to make rabbit cages this weekend, and start that project.  I 
have the most of the supplies now to build a chicken coop, but haven't 
started that yet.  I also need to build some portable but solid supports for 
pole beans and some of the tomatoes.  Last year I planted my green beans too 
close together, and had to build some supports at the end of the season when 
they seemed to get a 2nd wind and grow again.
 
Mostly, I'm enjoying the break before the rush of weeding and picking beans 
starts again.
 
 

> I love getting updates and hearing about the daily doings of others who
> are trying to live a simpler life.


________________________________



   
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Mark Stutzman wrote:
>> Is anyone off grid here or partially off grid? I'm really kind of lost as 
>> to where to start.
>>
My tailer can be off grid if needed.  I have 250 Watts of Solar panels,
220 AH battery storage, and two Honda generators for backup.With the
right conditions I can go several weeks on solar and battery alone.

The trailer uses 12V for lighting, water pump, and space heater fans.
Propane for the refrigerator, hot water heater, space heater, and cook
stove.  When connected to shore power I can switch the refrigerator and
hot water heater to 120VAC.  The air conditioner and microwave are the
only devices that require 120VAC and cannot run off battery power.  In
winter when the space heater is in use the fans will drag the batteries
down overnight.

For a small LCD TV and DVD player I have a small inverter.  For laptop
and cell phone battery charging I have 12VDC chargers.  The modified
sine wave output from the inverters seems to kill battery chargers.  It
is a workable system but a bit expensive for what it does.

--
Don Bowen           KI6DIU
http://www.braingarage.com/Dons/Travels/journal/Journal.html