Homestead mailing list

[Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>]

Eureka, yes, contact me.... would love to network with another in the 
desert.... except I can't figure out how to reply to you... LOL....
 
Will post desert questions eventually.

--- On Sat, 12/6/08, homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org 
<homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

From: homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org 
<homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Homestead Digest, Vol 53, Issue 79
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 10:35 AM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Share your vision (sjc)
   2. Re: Food Safety (Lynn Wigglesworth)
   3. Re: Food Safety (bob ford)
   4. Re: In fighting (Robert Walton)
   5. Re: New subscriber (Robert Walton)
   6. Re: In fighting (bob ford)
   7. Re: Atlas Shrugged, updated (Gene GeRue)
   8. Re: Atlas Shrugged, updated (Marie McHarry)
   9. Re: New subscriber (eureka AT hctc.net)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:59:10 -0500
From: sjc <indexer AT fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Share your vision
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <493A933E.3060408 AT fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:
> By the way, if you want a place to vent, this is where I go.
> http://change.gov/page/s/yourvision
>
> I've 'shared' my vision many times. Usually in the form of
"Is this the kind 
> of America that Obama envisions???" with a news story like the Ohio
raid 
> following. I don't know if anybody reads it (or maybe passes it around
and 
> laughs at it), but I feel better for getting it out.
>   
Well, I did get a perverse chuckle out of this, Lynn---probably they 
take yours in one hand and mine in the other and say, "Well, look!  
Here's another one!  How many of these nuts are there, anyway?"

But I too have used that page, and will until they take it down, not 
that that will stop me, I have an extensive file of Maine people to 
needle.....

SJ


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:05:39 -0500
From: "Lynn Wigglesworth" <lynnw1366 AT hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Food Safety
To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAY138-DAV11B2C7BC245A51047C4287AFFF0 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Ah yes...Mark Nolt. Sort of an icon in PA sustainable agriculture. He 
refused to renew his raw milk license and has been repeatedly arrested for 
selling raw milk. There are others, but Nolt is the most notorious....his 
goal is to "break the law to change it". If he lives to be 100, I
don't 
think he'll live long enough to accomplish that.

Lynn Wigglesworth
Tioga Co. PA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sjc" <indexer AT fairpoint.net>
To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Food Safety


> Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:
>> Bob; there's technically a 'raw milk license' in PA, but
anyone who has 
>> one
>> will tell you that they are harassed beyond belief by the PDA. People 
>> doing
>> 'cow shate' (where other people don't buy the milk, but
buy a share of 
>> the
>> cow) are regularly dragged into court. I don't know if they win or
not, 
>> but
>> who wants to live that way? Their plan is working.
>>
> They have been concentrating in the last few months (actually, now that
> I think of it, probably close to a year ) on a Mark Nolt, Amish guy
> (Beachy or one of those groups, but Amish) somewhere south or southwest
> of Harrisburg.  They've raided him at least twice, hauled him off to
> jail,  and hauled off tens of thousands of dollars' worth of cheeses,
> other product, and equipment, which so far has magically been replaced
> (as well as some pretty hefty fines paid), in support, by Amish groups,
> both his own and others.  As far as I know that whole this is stalemated
> in that stage.
>
> The Amish make, on the face of it, good targets:  they don't fight
back,
> they generally try and follow "english" rules, they are meek and
not
> mouthy, not given to hiring lawyers, they're not apt to make a splash
> about being unfairly arrested or badly treated, etc.  And in some ways
> they really don't "get it"; an Amish guy not too long ago
told me, after
> a years' incarceration for a non-crime, that "That sheriff guy
told me I
> was the best prisoner they ever had in that jail."  So their
separation
> and ignorance of society works for for and against.....
>
> Currently they (Amish) are scapegoats--that is, they would be scapegoats
> if it weren't all bogus to begin with-- in MI, OH, and PA, with some
> activity reported in IA, but I didn't get the whole story on that one,
> over raw milk/milk product sales.
>
> And increased migration to Belize is well underway.....
>
> SJ
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> 



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:08:56 -0800 (PST)
From: bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Food Safety
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <879491.52435.qm AT web53906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Lynn, I think ,before, I have said that I worked for politicians at a 
different
point in my life.  They were all Democrats.  I am one of the people who
completely changed my views on the government, politics, and the progression 
of
our society and culture suring the 1990s and the Ruby Ridge and Waco 
insanities.

  Most, at the time, would have thought that I would have been the
'last' person to 'side' with the Weavers or the cultists at
Waco.  But, something 'clicked' with me. I saw something wicked this way
coming.  I started reading, and am ratioanl enough to ferret out the 
conspiracy
pages from the real libertaians and to notice thast 'sometimes' they
become the same.  

I learned , over time, that there is nothing inherently good in gov't and
that the smaller the size of gov't the more accountable it is to its
constituents and the larger corrolary that large gov't loses all
accountability. 

 We are entering that point whre large money, and I don't mean people worth
a couple of million, that is no longer rich, I mean truly big  and or
"old" money;  when 'that' group and government become married,
then facism becomes real.  Not sillies about someone's grandfather being
friends with a banker in Italy in the thirties. 

 I mean lookeing at the window and seeing grown american men in  helmets,
bulletproof vests and full auto and carrying assault rifles - safeties off--
becuase you had the gall to milk a cow and sell the milk without a g-d d*mn
government stamp......................................

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Sat, 12/6/08, Lynn Wigglesworth <lynnw1366 AT hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Lynn Wigglesworth <lynnw1366 AT hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Food Safety
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 7:54 AM
> >  Another wild idea, could people incorporate as a
> "commune" or "order" , 
> > even if they don't live on the same land ?  Like
> "the farm" in TN, or "The 
> > Mennonites, etc", but just not live together? 
> That's all rhetorical and 
> > ridiculous but, that is what statist intrusion leads
> one to do to try and 
> > achieve what should >be most
> simple...................
> 
> Wouldn't that mean they would have to co-own the farm?
> No one around here is 
> THAT interested in local food.
> 
> The Powers That Be don't like that sort of thing. They
> obviously had some 
> kind of grudge against that family in Ohio...it IS a real
> story; I found the 
> original newspaper version:
> http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2008/12/03/news/mj309059.txt
> 
> They were arrested for operating a 'retail food
> establishment'  without a 
> license. According to Ohio code 3717.01:
> (C) ?Retail food establishment? means a premises or
> part of a premises where 
> food is stored, processed, prepared, manufactured, or
> otherwise held or 
> handled for retail sale. Except when expressly provided
> otherwise, ?retail 
> food establishment? includes a mobile retail food
> establishment, seasonal 
> retail food establishment, and temporary retail food
> establishment.
> 
> Maybe they violated that (I suspect, though, that a Coop
> isn't the same as 
> 'retail sale'), but is that a cause for being held
> at gunpoint and having 
> every thing confiscated? You'd think they were a meth
> lab, not an organic 
> food coop. Perhaps both are equally threatening to the
> Powers that Be.
> 
> Lynn Wigglesworth 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Homestead list and subscription:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead
> Change your homestead list member options:
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:12:32 -0500
From: "Robert Walton" <waltonrp AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] In fighting
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <86fab8600812060712w52b28c56j3802850acd7108b8 AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Didn't mean to infer that you are a Bushie (or Lynn). The Dems have
been in control since 11/4. Since 2006, they have not been in control.
Repubs have blocked most any initiatives that they have attempted.
Congressional Dems have not, however, done a good job accomplishing
anything useful since 2006. I really thought that they might be
punished for that in Nov, but I guess not this time.

Obama owns this situation. It's been squarely placed in his lap.
Neither George Bush or congress just happened upon this mess. Congress
probably needs more of the blame and that has been controlled largely
by Republicans for many, many years.

I really hope that Obama can step up to the plate and come through on
the one campaign promise I'll hold him to. "I will be honest with
you."

Bush finally admitted that we are in a recession one year after the
indicators started.

Rob - Va

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:43 PM, bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rob, neither Lynn nor I are "bushies" and neither of us voted
for McCain.  If you read the news, you will see that Bush has no power now, 
and
the Republicans are at there weakest since right after Watergate.
>
>  The Dems are in complete control, right now; and nothing that they do is
done without BO's approval.. Anything that has been "screwed into the
ground" for the since 2006 belongs to the Democrats, anything screwed into
the ground since Nov 4 , 2008 belongs squarely wityh BO and the new Democrats.
>
>  'No more blaming Bush, nor the republicans.  They couldn't pass a
nurf football.  The bail-out was done by the Demoxcrats, any additional
bail-outs will be done by the democrast.  That is not an opinion, that is
fact................................
>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:24 -0500
From: "Robert Walton" <waltonrp AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] New subscriber
To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <86fab8600812060719y29d9217pb7946da3a0b806c7 AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>
> Leslie

Welcome to the Homestead list Leslie. Everyone here is working on some
level of self-sufficiency and there's tons of collective knowledge.

How do you get water for growing things in your area?

Rob - Va


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:19:33 -0800 (PST)
From: bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] In fighting
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <485901.86280.qm AT web53911.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

rob, we agree more than we differ.  My point was that congress controls all
appropriations.  dems have controlled congrees ince 2006.  They have had
control, more control than the repuns, before them, since 2006.

  The dems now have more control,, bigger numbers than the repubs have had
since Harry Truman (look up the numbers, I am correct on this).  I don't
have any more repsect for the Bush years' repubs than you.  But that is
becuase they became just like big spending, big gov't statist democrats.

Lets work with that with which we do agree, which should be that soon you will
be along side Lynn and I criticizing the dems  ;-)  "the king is dead, long
live the king" .........................

-------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Sat, 12/6/08, Robert Walton <waltonrp AT gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Walton <waltonrp AT gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] In fighting
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 8:12 AM
> Didn't mean to infer that you are a Bushie (or Lynn).
> The Dems have
> been in control since 11/4. Since 2006, they have not been
> in control.
> Repubs have blocked most any initiatives that they have
> attempted.
> Congressional Dems have not, however, done a good job
> accomplishing
> anything useful since 2006. I really thought that they
> might be
> punished for that in Nov, but I guess not this time.
> 
> Obama owns this situation. It's been squarely placed in
> his lap.
> Neither George Bush or congress just happened upon this
> mess. Congress
> probably needs more of the blame and that has been
> controlled largely
> by Republicans for many, many years.
> 
> I really hope that Obama can step up to the plate and come
> through on
> the one campaign promise I'll hold him to. "I will
> be honest with
> you."
> 
> Bush finally admitted that we are in a recession one year
> after the
> indicators started.
> 
> Rob - Va
> 
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:43 PM, bob ford
> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Rob, neither Lynn nor I are "bushies" and
> neither of us voted for McCain.  If you read the news, you
> will see that Bush has no power now, and the Republicans are
> at there weakest since right after Watergate.
> >
> >  The Dems are in complete control, right now; and
> nothing that they do is done without BO's approval..
> Anything that has been "screwed into the ground"
> for the since 2006 belongs to the Democrats, anything
> screwed into the ground since Nov 4 , 2008 belongs squarely
> wityh BO and the new Democrats.
> >
> >  'No more blaming Bush, nor the republicans.  They
> couldn't pass a nurf football.  The bail-out was done by
> the Demoxcrats, any additional bail-outs will be done by the
> democrast.  That is not an opinion, that is
> fact................................
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Homestead list and subscription:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead
> Change your homestead list member options:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/homestead/bobford79%40yahoo.com
> View the archives at:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead


      


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:32:24 -0700
From: Gene GeRue <genegerue AT ruralize.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Atlas Shrugged, updated
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: Chris <cgerue AT cox.net>
Message-ID: <8E67F5C4-7149-4650-910A-1FB5676263FC AT ruralize.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Marie McHarry wrote:

> If you've read Atlas Shrugged, you'll enjoy the update:
> http://mcsweeneys.net/2008/11/20tucker.html

Wonderful. Shall we speculate whether Ms. Rand could at least chuckle,  
or may now have advanced enough to roll over in her grave--does the  
mind advance once physically dead?

Chris just finished reading Atlas Shrugged for about the fourth time.  
I will send it to her computer.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:34:45 -0600
From: "Marie McHarry" <mmcharry AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Atlas Shrugged, updated
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <18c9df6e0812060734r282c4471o58cbc80272235bb2 AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Gene GeRue <genegerue AT ruralize.com>
wrote:

> Wonderful. Shall we speculate whether Ms. Rand could at least chuckle,
> or may now have advanced enough to roll over in her grave--does the
> mind advance once physically dead?
>
I've wondered about that from time to time.

Marie


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:35:36 -0600
From: <eureka AT hctc.net>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] New subscriber
To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <web-17038722 AT mailadmin.hctc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1";
format="flowed"

Welcome Leslie! You may be in USDA Zone 8a, as I am. We 
are farming in a desert region, too, not unlike NM with a 
diurnal climate and little water. If you ever have any 
questions about growing things in the desert I might be 
able to help. As you know, it's very different than 
farming in the north, on which most gardening books focus.

--Sage
Way Out in Texas

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 06:40:06 -0800 (PST)
  Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:
> Quick intro:
> ?
> "Bev" has introduced me to this homestead site, I ran 
>into her on the internet somehow click click clicking 
>away...
> ?
> I'm in NM, in a farming area in the desert.
> ?
> I feel strongly that raising personal consumption food 
>is going to be critical to survival within 3-9 years.? I 
>need to learn how, and how to survive as much - asap.
> ?
> My interests are primary in economics, which trickles 
>down into just about everything.? I have a varied 
>background.? My studies in various economic areas have 
>led me to realize that survivalism is a must and time is 
>running out for Americans.
> ?
> And darned if I can figure out how to reply to specific 
>threads to expand on why.....yet.
> ?
> ?
> ?
> Leslie
> ?
> ?
> ?
> 
> 
>      
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead
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> 
> 



------------------------------

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End of Homestead Digest, Vol 53, Issue 79
*****************************************




>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 10:58:02 2008
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headline:  
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-ag-chief-China-US-agree-on-apf-13763833.html
 
On the surface, this would seem like a good idea, to create exports for 
farmers and therefore a monetary contribution to the collapsing US economy.  
But I suggest we look deeper at how currency rates could come into play with 
this ---- and the depression versus hyper-inflation debate which I 've been 
studying for a number of years now.
 
It starts with understanding that goods/services/commodities price inflation 
is caused by governments creating money out of thin air.  Central bankers 
"provide liquidity" in part by adding money to the money supply.  This 
devalues the purchasing power of currency.
 

 
(if I'm not allowed to insert charts etc - click on this link 
http://www.shadowstats.com/ slide down to see the chart on the right side YOY 
monetary base)
 
The US Fed is inflating the money supply at an historical rate, and are now 
embarking on the path of monetizing the debt - the final nail in the coffin.  
This will have unavoidable effects down the road - it leads to the road to 
hyperinflation.
 
A simple explanation to understand that the Central Bankers of the world, 
including the Fed, are the cause of inflation, as opposed to their charter of 
supposedly controlling inflation:
 
12 people (represent all people)
12 eggs (represent all goods/services produced)
12 dollars (represent all currency in existence)
 
Regardless of how many of the 12 people at any one time, create a demand for 
buying eggs,,, the grand total of all eggs can never be more than $12.00.  
The ceiling on price is limited by the total amount of money in circulation.
 
Now, add in the Fed's printing press (see the chart above and look good at 
2008).
 
12 people (represent all people)
12 eggs (represent all goods/services produced)
24 dollars (represent all currency in existence)
 
While the population hasn't changed, and the number of eggs hasn't changed, 
the grand total of all eggs can now be double $24.00.  Monetary induced 
inflation - not supply/demand.
 
While there may be fluctuations from time to time in individual "things" we 
buy (demand) the grand total doesn't change much.  
 
Soooooooooo back to my concerns about the topic.
 
When the US Fed iniflaties the money supply, which is a known fact, the 
outcome is two-fold - one inflation is just over the horizon, and two, the US 
Dollar devalues relative to other currencies (which is important in 
international trade).
 
What our stupid government  is proposing ignores is the effect the inflating 
money supply has on imports down the road.  Down the road when the dollar 
resumes falling relative to other currencies - our imports will become more 
expensive to us,,,, and cheaper to places like China.  China will be able to 
buy up our food supply CHEAP on the currency conversion.  And our government 
has just inked a deal to do just that.  The Chinese population using cheap 
currency conversions will raise prices thru huge demand.  
 
I believe the effect here will be food shortages, on top of food shortages we 
will be experiencing when the price of fuel resumes its uptrend.  (More on 
that and why oil will rise, in a bit).
 
Leslie
 
PS  Yes, massive deflation of assets [stocks, commodities, real estate] are 
currently ongoing.  The bond bubble is the next bubble that will burst.  
 
Another topic.... as inflation in commodities will resume when the M1 money 
supply created this year starts the trickle down process.  
 
Ahhh, and I see Ayn Rand fans........ you'll love my Greenspan Theory... 
 
 



>From genegerue AT ruralize.com  Sat Dec  6 10:58:40 2008
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On Dec 6, 2008, at 7:04 AM, Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:

> Between this and the Ohio story, small farmers will eventually give
> up. They
> will get jobs in town and raise and eat their own healthy organic
> food, and
> let everyone else eat factory food. The rest of the country will
> lose. It
> should be going the opposite way, but isn't.

I see a different food future. For the last year and more I have been
seeing an ever-increasing number of articles about locavorism from
online news sources all over the country. The paradigm is still in its
infancy, as organic was thirty years ago.

The baby boomers have effected many societal changes. Health and
longevity are two of their interests.