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  • From: "martin hall" <mdhall005 AT gmail.com>
  • To: "RTP-area local music and culture" <ch-scene AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: Cat's Cradle & Durham?
  • Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:03:48 -0400

This is pure speculation on my part (but that's where the fun is), I wonder
if it's the Golden Belt folks who are offering free rent?
I know that they are looking to open a performance space, but I have no idea
if it would be in the 1000 seat range. My impression was that they were
looking at a room of around 200 capacity.

Greenfire has bought up most of downtown Durham, and a lot of the
"warehouse" spaces around Central Park and the old ballpark.
I suppose one of those could be converted into a decent size venue...but I
would think it would cost quite a penny to get them up to grade.

I think that the area does miss out on some tours due to the lack of a
viable 1000-1500 seat venue...or larger...at least one that is not also
booking broadway shows, symphonies, ballet, etc....My impression is that
Frank still tries to book these shows, the ones that are "too big" for the
Cradle, and not big enough for an amphitheater, at alternative venues as
best he can, but the routing and scheduling do not always align.

Just as an example from personal experience, Arcade Fire did not play the
triangle on their Neon Bible tour because there was not a venue that was
available that fit with their routing. They ended up in Asheville (Thomas
Wolfe Theatre) instead. They would have had to book 3 or more shows at the
Cradle to appease the same number of people. And James is right in that the
Orange Peel seems to be drawing a lot of acts that would have likely gone to
the Cradle first in years gone by.

Back in the day, some seemed to think that the new Performing Arts Center in
Durham, or perhaps Meymandi/Progress Energy in Raleigh might be viable
options for these sorts of shows, and they do (or will) host rock shows from
time to time, but the companies that run those theatres are in the broadway
business and are not likely too keen on the rock music. The windows of
opportunity to squeeze concerts into their schedules seems, from the outside
at least, to be very limited.

We still get great shows, all things considered. We just don't get
everything by default like we used to. And there seem to be a healthy enough
number of local bands playing at smaller (or even impromptu) venues to keep
even the casual music fan happy if they are just willing to take a chance on
something they haven;t read about in Rolling Stone or (insert whatever mass
media outlet suits you here). Or at least that's how it appears to me. And
since I don't get out to see a fraction of what we do get/have, I don't feel
like I can really complain.

To be honest, I have trouble seeing how a "permanent" 1000-1500 capacity
venue that focuses just on indie/alternative/whateveryoucallit rock would
draw consistently anyway. Of course I suppse they could draw from other
genres to round things out (R&B, Hip Hop, Country, etc). They would
definitely have to tap into that "casual" music fan that I referenced
above. But I agree with Ross in that I'm not likely to be going to many of
those shows myself, so maybe my perspective is a bit skewed. I'm no longer
the target demographic.

YMMV.

-5er



On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Bryon Settle
<ployntabs AT embarqmail.com>wrote:

> Yeah, I saw that David Byrne was playing Asheville. Does Frank feel that
> he needs to expand if and when he has to move?
>
> James Hepler wrote:
> > No acts come to mind directly, but it does seem as though the Orange Peel
> > (950 capacity to the cradle's 650) in Asheville is becoming the new
> > destination for bands that draw in that 1000 people range. Smashing
> > Pumpkins I guess might be an example, albeit a poor one. Perhaps New
> > Pornographers, Peter, Bjorn, & John, etc?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Bryon Settle <ployntabs AT embarqmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >> So what acts would we see if there was a thousand seat space?
> >>
> >> grady wrote:
> >>
> >>> It all sounds like a bunch of hooey to me. Specifically, the type of
> >>> hooey that developers toss around when they're getting frustrated at
> >>> local opposition to their projects. Sort of like "well, we appreciate
> >>> your concerns, but if we don't get the green-light to proceed with our
> >>> project by FRIDAY then circumstances beyond our control might force us
> >>> to build a Wal-Mart with on-premise strip club instead."
> >>>
> >>> Except since it's Carrboro we're talking about, and the developers
> >>> probably aren't evil, but rather just getting impatient with some
> >>> late-term naysayers who apparently didn't bother to raise their
> concerns
> >>> during any of the opportunities for public input over the past 3 years
> >>> (remember this thread?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.chapel-hill/browse_frm/thread/32360402f81bf7bb/400074a8ace20151
> >>
> >>> ), the doomsaying takes the somewhat more passive-aggressive form of
> >>> Laura Van Sant making vague statements about how she sure hopes the
> >>> Cradle doesn't up and move to Durham due to the uncertainty surrounding
> >>> the development.
> >>>
> >>> Or, to quote (extensively) from the Schultz & Menconi article in the
> >>> CHN/N&O:
> >>> ------- begin quote -----------
> >>> A developer proposing the renovation of the nightclub's East Main
> Street
> >>> shopping center urged the Carrboro Board of Aldermen to approve the
> >>> project Tuesday night, saying any further delay could send Cradle owner
> >>> Frank Heath packing.
> >>>
> >>> "It's absolutely an integral part of our project," Laura Van Sant said
> >>> in an interview Wednesday. "It is a fact he has landlords in Durham
> >>> offering him free space."
> >>>
> >>> But it's not clear that delaying the 300 East Main Street project would
> >>> force the Cradle to leave Carrboro. In an e-mail statement, Heath said
> >>> he gets regular inquiries about relocating the Cradle to a larger space
> >>> in one of the Triangle's other cities.
> >>>
> >>> "It can get a bit frustrating knowing that our current spot really is
> >>> where this venue needs to stay, while also knowing that we could
> benefit
> >>> from a larger space," Heath wrote.
> >>>
> >>> When asked about Van Sant's claim he'd been offered rent-free space in
> >>> Durham, Heath answered that it was more along the lines of booking
> shows
> >>> elsewhere than a space of his own to operate as Cat's Cradle.
> >>> --------- close quote -----------
> >>> http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1221382.html
> >>>
> >>> I'm not attempting to predict the future, but what I *am* saying is
> that
> >>> this project has been in the works for well over three years, and while
> >>> I'm sure Frank Heath has done a good job of formulating contingency
> >>> plans, the fact that he hasn't moved before now would indicate that
> he's
> >>> unlikely to up & move just because the project is *not* moving ahead.
> >>>
> >>> And just to provide background that's missing from the current
> coverage:
> >>> the plan, as it was explained to me, was for the Cradle to move into
> the
> >>> Performance Bikes space once it came time to bulldoze the stripmall
> >>> itself, and then eventually move into a custom-built space near the
> back
> >>> corner of the project, along with the ArtsCenter.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously grandiose plans such as those are exactly the sorts of things
> >>> to get amended &/or jettisoned once time & money get tight, and it
> would
> >>> be nice to see the coverage address some of that.
> >>>
> >>> Our friend Dave Menconi is fond of citing the shows that *don't* hit
> the
> >>> Triangle due to the lack of a ~1000-seat venue, but unless there's a
> >>> 1000-capacity building with all the requisites (parking, plumbing, etc)
> >>> just sitting unused in Durham or elsewhere, I don't think that's going
> >>> to play into this particular decision.
> >>>
> >>> One other bit of missing information: what's the planned capacity of
> the
> >>> "new" Cradle that's featured in the plans for the East Main
> development?
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>>
> >>> Gary Miller wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I was walking down the hallway in my building today and spied a
> >>>> headline on the front of the Daily Tar Heel that caught my eye:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Durham Eyes Cat's Cradle"
> >>>>
> >>>> The article is about the proposed development at 300 E. Main St. and
> >>>> quotes someone from Main Street Properties as saying "He's literrly
> >>>> getting offered free space by folks in Durham." The "he" in that
> >>>> sentence is Frank. Frank is quoted as saying he's keeping his options
> >>>> open. "Given the uncertainty with regards to the timing and future of
> >>>> the Carrboro project, Cat's Cradle is trying to keep an open mind
> >>>> about any future locations and configurations for the club." It goes
> >>>> on to say he's isn't currently planning to move the venue.
> >>>>
> >>>> I realize I'm probably way out of the loop. But, although I knew
> >>>> about the development, this is the first I've heard about the impact
> >>>> it could potentially have on the Cradle's location, esp. being
> >>>> recruited by Durham.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone else?
> >>>>
> >>>> Gary
> >>>> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
> >>
> >>
> > -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
> >
> >
> >
> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
>




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