Cc-uk mailing list

[Jonathan Mitchell <website3 AT jonathanmitchell.info>]

I am very pleased that all this is now settled and best wishes for a
successful launch.

One of these days I would love to see the CC international licenses follow
the plain-language initiative; it seems to me that this drafting has shown
that all this legalese verbiage can be pruned without any ill-effect on the
meaning of the license; see
http://www.adler.demon.co.uk/clarity/downloads/47.pdf .

Jonathan
--
Jonathan Mitchell QC

Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh EH1 1RF,
Scotland
DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, Edinburgh 10

Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info

Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland.
Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.

This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged material
and are confidential to the intended recipient.

Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 220
2654; e-mail murraystable AT advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel should
unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> From: Damian Tambini <damian.tambini AT socio-legal-studies.oxford.ac.uk>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:32:07 +0000 (GMT)
> To: Hector MacQueen <hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk>
> Cc: Creative Commons UK <cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org>, 
> roland AT creativecommons.org,
> p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk, Paul Miller <P.Miller AT hull.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] Idiotic decision from Berlin as to CC licenses
> 
> The current plan is as follows.
> 
> We will launch an England and Wales license later this week (unless we are
> advised against this by Finers Stephens Innocent who are kindly now 
> reviewing
> it), and assuming that our HTML process and the international commons 
> website
> can manage this).
> 
> We will note that a license for CC Scotland will be launched in the near
> future in publicity.
> 
> The international Creative Commons website where the licenses are stored 
> will
> have a union flag as an option. As in the case of Spanish and Catalonian
> licenses, clicking on the Union Flag will offer a drop down menu including 
> E+W
> and Scotland. Linking to licenses when they are available.
> 
> This is the solution of the International Creative Commons team.
> 
> Best wishes, thanks again for all your positive comment and participation.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Damian
> 
> 
> In message <1105780444.41e8dedc97a43 AT staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Hector MacQueen
> <hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk> writes:
>> I'm sorry that I'm only catching up with this now - I've been engaged on
>> other
>> business.  It's clear that the licence to be launched on the 19th can only 
>> be
>> an England & Wales one, there being no such thing as a jurisdiction or a 
>> law
>> of
>> the UK.  I would strongly support the suggestion that, to avoid accusations
>> of
>> legal illiteracy which will seriously undermine the project's credibility
>> here
>> (and here I mean the UK), it be launched for E&W specifically, with the
>> promise
>> of a Scottish version (and indeed a Northern Ireland one) in the reasonably
>> near
>> future.
>> 
>> Hector
>> 
>> --
>> Hector L MacQueen
>> Professor of Private Law
>> Director, AHRB Research Centre Intellectual Property and Technology Law
>> Edinburgh Law School
>> University of Edinburgh
>> Edinburgh EH8 9YL
>> UK
>> Tel: (0)131-650-2060; Fax: (0)131-662-6317
>> 
>> 
>> Quoting Paul Miller <P.Miller AT hull.ac.uk>:
>> 
>>>> From the discussion I have observed on this list, and my understanding
>>>> (such
>>> as
>>> it is) of the very different legal frameworks in England & Wales as 
>>> opposed
>>> to
>>> Scotland, I would be extremely keen to see a solution developed such as 
>>> that
>>> which appeared to be proposed in the earlier exchanges between Jonathan 
>>> and
>>> the
>>> team in Oxford.
>>> 
>>> The current licence is good, and works for England and Wales. Launch it as
>>> such,
>>> and allow us to use it, rather than diminishing its worth by pretending 
>>> it's
>>> something that it's not (a UK licence). Work in parallel towards a 
>>> Scottish
>>> licence, and a Northern Irish one. These need not come out next week along
>>> with
>>> the English & Welsh licence, so long as everyone is clear that they're
>>> coming.
>>> Further, work TOGETHER towards an understanding of how these licences fit
>>> together, and offer guidance on how a UK-wide activity might licence 
>>> content
>>> (presumably, as is already done for other contracts, by simply picking 
>>> ONE,
>>> and
>>> saying that the content is licenced under Scots law, English law, or
>>> whatever).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would, of course, be interested in seeing the views of both the Oxford
>>> team
>>> and the BBC Creative Archive team, both of whom are closer to this and 
>>> more
>>> versed in the legal intricacies than I.
>>> 
>>> I am Director of a UK-spanning activity and would, in most cases, pick 
>>> (any)
>>> one
>>> of the licences. However, members of the organisation have differing
>>> geographical remits with some covering only Scotland, only England, etc. I
>>> would not currently feel able to recommend or require that 
>>> Scotland-specific
>>> activities taking place under the broader CIE umbrella be licenced under
>>> English law.
>>> 
>>> If there is anything that the CIE *can* do to assist in moving towards
>>> resolution here, please do not hesitate to ask.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr Paul Miller
>>> Director, Common Information Environment
>>> 
>>> e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
>>> w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
>>> 
>>> Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/
>>> Keep current with the "CIE News" Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Quoting Jonathan Mitchell <website3 AT jonathanmitchell.info>:
>>> 
>>>> This is the latest exchange of messages between Christiane Asschenfeldt 
>>>> of
>>>> International Creative Commons and myself. As Damien Tambini agreed some
>>>> time ago that he would copy Professor MacQueen and I in on further 
>>>> messages
>>>> between his team and ICC, and as I have had no such messages, I have to
>>>> assume that she is doing this entirely off her own bat without any input
>>>> from the Oxford team- she has certainly had none from here that supports
>>> her
>>>> decision.
>>>> 
>>>> My apologies to English readers for once more banging on about this, but
>>>> this has the capability of damaging next Wednesday's launch for no 
>>>> benefit
>>>> whatsoever and thus affecting CC in England as well.
>>>> 
>>>> Jonathan Mitchell
>>>> 
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: Jonathan Mitchell <jonathanmitchell AT mac.com>
>>>> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:12:42 +0000
>>>> To: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
>>>> Cc: <roland AT creativecommons.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: CC Scotland
>>>> 
>>>> I feel like tearing my hair out! Do you and the Californians genuinely 
>>>> have
>>>> no understanding that Scotland is a different jurisdiction and indeed is 
>>>> a
>>>> different national culture, or of the harm you are potentially doing to
>>>> goodwill? Think:-
>>>> 
>>>> 1. How could it seriously be suggested that a licence which has been
>>>> developed for one jurisdiction, England and Wales, and which confers
>>>> exclusive jurisdiction on the courts of England and Wales, could be put
>>>> forward for use in another jurisdiction, Scotland? The draft licence 
>>>> worked
>>>> up in Oxford states:
>>>>> This Licence shall be governed by the law of England and Wales and the
>>>> parties
>>>>> irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of 
>>>>> England
>>>> and
>>>>> Wales.
>>>> What this means is that if anyone in Scotland used this (which they 
>>>> won't)
>>>> they would be regulated by the laws and courts of the next-door country!
>>>> The BBC can use such a license, because it is a single organisation based
>>> in
>>>> the English jurisdiction. Individuals in Scotland can't. So your takeup 
>>>> in
>>>> Scotland will be zero.
>>>> 
>>>> 2. The CC-EW team have agreed. On 6 December, Prodromos Tsiavos wrote:
>>>>> Jonathan’s point is valid: the CC licences that explicitly refer to the
>>>>> jurisdiction of England and Wales will be henceforth called CC-EW. I 
>>>>> have
>>>> made
>>>>> the respective changes and am attaching the relevant draft. I will also
>>>> raise
>>>>> the issue during the phone conference on the 8th of December and since
>>> the
>>>> iCC
>>>>> seem to be of the same opinion, we should consider the issue resolved
>>>> So what you propose goes back on a consensus decision among English and
>>>> Scottish participants.
>>>> 
>>>> 3. You cannot publicise such a license in Scotland or hope that it will
>>>> receive anything other than justified criticism, when if you were to
>>> release
>>>> it as what it is, an EW license, there would be no such criticism. This 
>>>> is
>>>> totally unnecessary. In fact it is quite barmy.
>>>> 
>>>> Would you like to telephone me to discuss this some time this weekend
>>> before
>>>> your egg hits the fan? Meanwhile I will copy this exchange (I have not
>>>> copied any previous correspondence) to the mailing list. The English
>>>> participants have also a right to know of these foolish decisions.
>>>> 
>>>> Jonathan
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Mitchell QC
>>>> 
>>>> Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
>>>> Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
>>>> Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
>>>> Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh EH1 1RF,
>>>> Scotland
>>>> DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, Edinburgh 10
>>>> 
>>>> Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info
>>>> 
>>>> Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland.
>>>> Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.
>>>> 
>>>> This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged 
>>>> material
>>>> and are confidential to the intended recipient.
>>>> 
>>>> Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 
>>>> 220
>>>> 2654; e-mail murraystable AT advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel 
>>>> should
>>>> unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
>>>> 
>>>>> From: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:29:54 -0800
>>>>> To: jonathanmitchell AT mac.com
>>>>> Cc: roland AT creativecommons.org, christiane AT creativecommons.org
>>>>> Subject: CC Scotland
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear Jonathan,
>>>>> 
>>>>> thanks again for writing, and for your most valuable contribution to the
>>>>> Creative Commons project. We appreciate your involvement very much.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The first deadline - which was set for the UK as a whole - is on January
>>>>> 19th. After due reflection and discussion, in Berlin and California, it
>>>>> looks as if we have to stick to the original schedule for the moment and
>>>>> come up with a single UK licence for this date, i.e. one licence that
>>>>> would include all of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. One
>>>>> among many reasons for this is our collaboration with the BBC under one
>>>>> single umbrella.
>>>>> 
>>>>> However, as this is only the next mile stone, and as the licences will
>>>>> soon be revised, we would love to be able to work with you on a Scottish
>>>>> version in the weeks to come. We envisage publication of such a specific
>>>>> version by March or April.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We shall be in touch in due course to incorporate your recent comments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best, Christiane
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr Paul Miller
>>> Director, Common Information Environment
>>> 
>>> e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
>>> w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
>>> 
>>> Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/
>>> Keep current with the "CIE News" Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
>>> 
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> 
> -- 
> Damian Tambini
> Oxford University Programme in Comparative Media Law and Policy
> Manor Road, Oxford
> 01865 284251   http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk
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