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[Hector MacQueen <hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk>]

I'm sorry that I'm only catching up with this now - I've been engaged on other
business.  It's clear that the licence to be launched on the 19th can only be
an England & Wales one, there being no such thing as a jurisdiction or a law 
of
the UK.  I would strongly support the suggestion that, to avoid accusations of
legal illiteracy which will seriously undermine the project's credibility here
(and here I mean the UK), it be launched for E&W specifically, with the 
promise
of a Scottish version (and indeed a Northern Ireland one) in the reasonably 
near
future.

Hector

--
Hector L MacQueen
Professor of Private Law
Director, AHRB Research Centre Intellectual Property and Technology Law
Edinburgh Law School
University of Edinburgh
Edinburgh EH8 9YL
UK
Tel: (0)131-650-2060; Fax: (0)131-662-6317


Quoting Paul Miller <P.Miller AT hull.ac.uk>:

> >From the discussion I have observed on this list, and my understanding 
> >(such
> as
> it is) of the very different legal frameworks in England & Wales as opposed
> to
> Scotland, I would be extremely keen to see a solution developed such as that
> which appeared to be proposed in the earlier exchanges between Jonathan and
> the
> team in Oxford.
>
> The current licence is good, and works for England and Wales. Launch it as
> such,
> and allow us to use it, rather than diminishing its worth by pretending it's
> something that it's not (a UK licence). Work in parallel towards a Scottish
> licence, and a Northern Irish one. These need not come out next week along
> with
> the English & Welsh licence, so long as everyone is clear that they're
> coming.
> Further, work TOGETHER towards an understanding of how these licences fit
> together, and offer guidance on how a UK-wide activity might licence content
> (presumably, as is already done for other contracts, by simply picking ONE,
> and
> saying that the content is licenced under Scots law, English law, or
> whatever).
>
>
> I would, of course, be interested in seeing the views of both the Oxford 
> team
> and the BBC Creative Archive team, both of whom are closer to this and more
> versed in the legal intricacies than I.
>
> I am Director of a UK-spanning activity and would, in most cases, pick (any)
> one
> of the licences. However, members of the organisation have differing
> geographical remits with some covering only Scotland, only England, etc. I
> would not currently feel able to recommend or require that Scotland-specific
> activities taking place under the broader CIE umbrella be licenced under
> English law.
>
> If there is anything that the CIE *can* do to assist in moving towards
> resolution here, please do not hesitate to ask.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --
> Dr Paul Miller
> Director, Common Information Environment
>
> e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
> w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
>
> Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/
> Keep current with the "CIE News" Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/
>
>
> Quoting Jonathan Mitchell <website3 AT jonathanmitchell.info>:
>
> > This is the latest exchange of messages between Christiane Asschenfeldt of
> > International Creative Commons and myself. As Damien Tambini agreed some
> > time ago that he would copy Professor MacQueen and I in on further 
> > messages
> > between his team and ICC, and as I have had no such messages, I have to
> > assume that she is doing this entirely off her own bat without any input
> > from the Oxford team- she has certainly had none from here that supports
> her
> > decision.
> >
> > My apologies to English readers for once more banging on about this, but
> > this has the capability of damaging next Wednesday's launch for no benefit
> > whatsoever and thus affecting CC in England as well.
> >
> > Jonathan Mitchell
> >
> > ------ Forwarded Message
> > From: Jonathan Mitchell <jonathanmitchell AT mac.com>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:12:42 +0000
> > To: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> > Cc: <roland AT creativecommons.org>
> > Subject: Re: CC Scotland
> >
> > I feel like tearing my hair out! Do you and the Californians genuinely 
> > have
> > no understanding that Scotland is a different jurisdiction and indeed is a
> > different national culture, or of the harm you are potentially doing to
> > goodwill? Think:-
> >
> > 1. How could it seriously be suggested that a licence which has been
> > developed for one jurisdiction, England and Wales, and which confers
> > exclusive jurisdiction on the courts of England and Wales, could be put
> > forward for use in another jurisdiction, Scotland? The draft licence 
> > worked
> > up in Oxford states:
> > > This Licence shall be governed by the law of England and Wales and the
> > parties
> > > irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of 
> > > England
> > and
> > > Wales.
> > What this means is that if anyone in Scotland used this (which they won't)
> > they would be regulated by the laws and courts of the next-door country!
> > The BBC can use such a license, because it is a single organisation based
> in
> > the English jurisdiction. Individuals in Scotland can't. So your takeup in
> > Scotland will be zero.
> >
> > 2. The CC-EW team have agreed. On 6 December, Prodromos Tsiavos wrote:
> > > Jonathan’s point is valid: the CC licences that explicitly refer to the
> > > jurisdiction of England and Wales will be henceforth called CC-EW. I 
> > > have
> > made
> > > the respective changes and am attaching the relevant draft. I will also
> > raise
> > > the issue during the phone conference on the 8th of December and since
> the
> > iCC
> > > seem to be of the same opinion, we should consider the issue resolved
> > So what you propose goes back on a consensus decision among English and
> > Scottish participants.
> >
> > 3. You cannot publicise such a license in Scotland or hope that it will
> > receive anything other than justified criticism, when if you were to
> release
> > it as what it is, an EW license, there would be no such criticism. This is
> > totally unnecessary. In fact it is quite barmy.
> >
> > Would you like to telephone me to discuss this some time this weekend
> before
> > your egg hits the fan? Meanwhile I will copy this exchange (I have not
> > copied any previous correspondence) to the mailing list. The English
> > participants have also a right to know of these foolish decisions.
> >
> > Jonathan
> > --
> > Jonathan Mitchell QC
> >
> > Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
> > Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
> > Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
> > Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh EH1 1RF,
> > Scotland
> > DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, Edinburgh 10
> >
> > Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info
> >
> > Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland.
> > Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.
> >
> > This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged material
> > and are confidential to the intended recipient.
> >
> > Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 220
> > 2654; e-mail murraystable AT advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel 
> > should
> > unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> >
> > > From: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> > > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:29:54 -0800
> > > To: jonathanmitchell AT mac.com
> > > Cc: roland AT creativecommons.org, christiane AT creativecommons.org
> > > Subject: CC Scotland
> > >
> > > Dear Jonathan,
> > >
> > > thanks again for writing, and for your most valuable contribution to the
> > > Creative Commons project. We appreciate your involvement very much.
> > >
> > > The first deadline - which was set for the UK as a whole - is on January
> > > 19th. After due reflection and discussion, in Berlin and California, it
> > > looks as if we have to stick to the original schedule for the moment and
> > > come up with a single UK licence for this date, i.e. one licence that
> > > would include all of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. One
> > > among many reasons for this is our collaboration with the BBC under one
> > > single umbrella.
> > >
> > > However, as this is only the next mile stone, and as the licences will
> > > soon be revised, we would love to be able to work with you on a Scottish
> > > version in the weeks to come. We envisage publication of such a specific
> > > version by March or April.
> > >
> > > We shall be in touch in due course to incorporate your recent comments.
> > >
> > > Best, Christiane
> > >
> >
> > ------ End of Forwarded Message
> >
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> >
>
>
> --
> Dr Paul Miller
> Director, Common Information Environment
>
> e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
> w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
>
> Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/
> Keep current with the "CIE News" Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/
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