Cc-uk mailing list

["Hector MacQueen" <hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk>]

Dear Damian

Good of you to put this out under the continuing header!  I am sure your
proposed approach now is the right one.

Yrs

Hector

************************

Hector L MacQueen
Professor of Private Law 
Director, AHRB Research Centre for Studies in Intellectual Property and
Technology Law
University of Edinburgh
Old College
South Bridge
Edinburgh EH8 9YL
UK
Tel (UK)-(0)131-650-2060
Fax (UK)-(0)131-650-6317
Email: hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk
Web: http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ 

************************


-----Original Message-----
From: Damian Tambini
[mailto:damian.tambini AT socio-legal-studies.oxford.ac.uk] 
Sent: 17 January 2005 14:32
To: Hector MacQueen
Cc: Creative Commons UK; p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk;
roland AT creativecommons.org; p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk; Paul Miller
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] Idiotic decision from Berlin as to CC licenses


The current plan is as follows.

We will launch an England and Wales license later this week (unless we
are advised against this by Finers Stephens Innocent who are kindly now
reviewing it), and assuming that our HTML process and the international
commons website can manage this).

We will note that a license for CC Scotland will be launched in the near
future in publicity.

The international Creative Commons website where the licenses are stored
will have a union flag as an option. As in the case of Spanish and
Catalonian licenses, clicking on the Union Flag will offer a drop down
menu including E+W and Scotland. Linking to licenses when they are
available.

This is the solution of the International Creative Commons team.

Best wishes, thanks again for all your positive comment and
participation. 

Best regards


Damian


In message <1105780444.41e8dedc97a43 AT staffmail.ed.ac.uk> Hector MacQueen
<hector.macqueen AT ed.ac.uk> writes:
> I'm sorry that I'm only catching up with this now - I've been engaged 
> on other business.  It's clear that the licence to be launched on the 
> 19th can only be an England & Wales one, there being no such thing as 
> a jurisdiction or a law of the UK.  I would strongly support the 
> suggestion that, to avoid accusations of legal illiteracy which will 
> seriously undermine the project's credibility here (and here I mean 
> the UK), it be launched for E&W specifically, with the promise of a 
> Scottish version (and indeed a Northern Ireland one) in the reasonably

> near future.
> 
> Hector
> 
> --
> Hector L MacQueen
> Professor of Private Law
> Director, AHRB Research Centre Intellectual Property and Technology 
> Law Edinburgh Law School University of Edinburgh
> Edinburgh EH8 9YL
> UK
> Tel: (0)131-650-2060; Fax: (0)131-662-6317
> 
> 
> Quoting Paul Miller <P.Miller AT hull.ac.uk>:
> 
> > >From the discussion I have observed on this list, and my 
> > >understanding (such
> > as
> > it is) of the very different legal frameworks in England & Wales as 
> > opposed to Scotland, I would be extremely keen to see a solution 
> > developed such as that which appeared to be proposed in the earlier 
> > exchanges between Jonathan and the
> > team in Oxford.
> >
> > The current licence is good, and works for England and Wales. Launch

> > it as such, and allow us to use it, rather than diminishing its 
> > worth by pretending it's something that it's not (a UK licence). 
> > Work in parallel towards a Scottish licence, and a Northern Irish 
> > one. These need not come out next week along with
> > the English & Welsh licence, so long as everyone is clear that
they're
> > coming.
> > Further, work TOGETHER towards an understanding of how these
licences fit
> > together, and offer guidance on how a UK-wide activity might licence
content
> > (presumably, as is already done for other contracts, by simply
picking ONE,
> > and
> > saying that the content is licenced under Scots law, English law, or
> > whatever).
> >
> >
> > I would, of course, be interested in seeing the views of both the 
> > Oxford team and the BBC Creative Archive team, both of whom are 
> > closer to this and more versed in the legal intricacies than I.
> >
> > I am Director of a UK-spanning activity and would, in most cases, 
> > pick (any) one of the licences. However, members of the organisation

> > have differing geographical remits with some covering only Scotland,

> > only England, etc. I would not currently feel able to recommend or 
> > require that Scotland-specific activities taking place under the 
> > broader CIE umbrella be licenced under English law.
> >
> > If there is anything that the CIE *can* do to assist in moving 
> > towards resolution here, please do not hesitate to ask.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Paul Miller
> > Director, Common Information Environment
> >
> > e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
> > w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
> >
> > Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at 
> > www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/ Keep current with the "CIE News" 
> > Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/
> >
> >
> > Quoting Jonathan Mitchell <website3 AT jonathanmitchell.info>:
> >
> > > This is the latest exchange of messages between Christiane 
> > > Asschenfeldt of International Creative Commons and myself. As 
> > > Damien Tambini agreed some time ago that he would copy Professor 
> > > MacQueen and I in on further messages between his team and ICC, 
> > > and as I have had no such messages, I have to assume that she is 
> > > doing this entirely off her own bat without any input from the 
> > > Oxford team- she has certainly had none from here that supports
> > her
> > > decision.
> > >
> > > My apologies to English readers for once more banging on about 
> > > this, but this has the capability of damaging next Wednesday's 
> > > launch for no benefit whatsoever and thus affecting CC in England 
> > > as well.
> > >
> > > Jonathan Mitchell
> > >
> > > ------ Forwarded Message
> > > From: Jonathan Mitchell <jonathanmitchell AT mac.com>
> > > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:12:42 +0000
> > > To: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> > > Cc: <roland AT creativecommons.org>
> > > Subject: Re: CC Scotland
> > >
> > > I feel like tearing my hair out! Do you and the Californians 
> > > genuinely have no understanding that Scotland is a different 
> > > jurisdiction and indeed is a different national culture, or of the

> > > harm you are potentially doing to goodwill? Think:-
> > >
> > > 1. How could it seriously be suggested that a licence which has 
> > > been developed for one jurisdiction, England and Wales, and which 
> > > confers exclusive jurisdiction on the courts of England and Wales,

> > > could be put forward for use in another jurisdiction, Scotland? 
> > > The draft licence worked up in Oxford states:
> > > > This Licence shall be governed by the law of England and Wales 
> > > > and the
> > > parties
> > > > irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts 
> > > > of England
> > > and
> > > > Wales.
> > > What this means is that if anyone in Scotland used this (which 
> > > they won't) they would be regulated by the laws and courts of the 
> > > next-door country! The BBC can use such a license, because it is a

> > > single organisation based
> > in
> > > the English jurisdiction. Individuals in Scotland can't. So your 
> > > takeup in Scotland will be zero.
> > >
> > > 2. The CC-EW team have agreed. On 6 December, Prodromos Tsiavos 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Jonathan's point is valid: the CC licences that explicitly refer

> > > > to the jurisdiction of England and Wales will be henceforth 
> > > > called CC-EW. I have
> > > made
> > > > the respective changes and am attaching the relevant draft. I 
> > > > will also
> > > raise
> > > > the issue during the phone conference on the 8th of December and

> > > > since
> > the
> > > iCC
> > > > seem to be of the same opinion, we should consider the issue 
> > > > resolved
> > > So what you propose goes back on a consensus decision among 
> > > English and Scottish participants.
> > >
> > > 3. You cannot publicise such a license in Scotland or hope that it

> > > will receive anything other than justified criticism, when if you 
> > > were to
> > release
> > > it as what it is, an EW license, there would be no such criticism.

> > > This is totally unnecessary. In fact it is quite barmy.
> > >
> > > Would you like to telephone me to discuss this some time this 
> > > weekend
> > before
> > > your egg hits the fan? Meanwhile I will copy this exchange (I have

> > > not copied any previous correspondence) to the mailing list. The 
> > > English participants have also a right to know of these foolish 
> > > decisions.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > > --
> > > Jonathan Mitchell QC
> > >
> > > Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
> > > Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
> > > Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
> > > Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh 
> > > EH1 1RF, Scotland DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, 
> > > Edinburgh 10
> > >
> > > Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info
> > >
> > > Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland. 
> > > Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.
> > >
> > > This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged 
> > > material and are confidential to the intended recipient.
> > >
> > > Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 
> > > 0131 220 2654; e-mail murraystable AT advocates.org.uk . Instructions

> > > as counsel should unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> > >
> > > > From: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> > > > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:29:54 -0800
> > > > To: jonathanmitchell AT mac.com
> > > > Cc: roland AT creativecommons.org, christiane AT creativecommons.org
> > > > Subject: CC Scotland
> > > >
> > > > Dear Jonathan,
> > > >
> > > > thanks again for writing, and for your most valuable 
> > > > contribution to the Creative Commons project. We appreciate your

> > > > involvement very much.
> > > >
> > > > The first deadline - which was set for the UK as a whole - is on

> > > > January 19th. After due reflection and discussion, in Berlin and

> > > > California, it looks as if we have to stick to the original 
> > > > schedule for the moment and come up with a single UK licence for

> > > > this date, i.e. one licence that would include all of Scotland, 
> > > > England, Wales and Northern Ireland. One among many reasons for 
> > > > this is our collaboration with the BBC under one single 
> > > > umbrella.
> > > >
> > > > However, as this is only the next mile stone, and as the 
> > > > licences will soon be revised, we would love to be able to work 
> > > > with you on a Scottish version in the weeks to come. We envisage

> > > > publication of such a specific version by March or April.
> > > >
> > > > We shall be in touch in due course to incorporate your recent 
> > > > comments.
> > > >
> > > > Best, Christiane
> > > >
> > >
> > > ------ End of Forwarded Message
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Paul Miller
> > Director, Common Information Environment
> >
> > e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
> > w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector
> >
> > Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at 
> > www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/ Keep current with the "CIE News" 
> > Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/ 
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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-- 
Damian Tambini
Oxford University Programme in Comparative Media Law and Policy Manor
Road, Oxford
01865 284251   http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk
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