Cc-uk mailing list

[Paul Miller <P.Miller AT hull.ac.uk>]

>From the discussion I have observed on this list, and my understanding (such 
>as
it is) of the very different legal frameworks in England & Wales as opposed to
Scotland, I would be extremely keen to see a solution developed such as that
which appeared to be proposed in the earlier exchanges between Jonathan and 
the
team in Oxford.

The current licence is good, and works for England and Wales. Launch it as 
such,
and allow us to use it, rather than diminishing its worth by pretending it's
something that it's not (a UK licence). Work in parallel towards a Scottish
licence, and a Northern Irish one. These need not come out next week along 
with
the English & Welsh licence, so long as everyone is clear that they're coming.
Further, work TOGETHER towards an understanding of how these licences fit
together, and offer guidance on how a UK-wide activity might licence content
(presumably, as is already done for other contracts, by simply picking ONE, 
and
saying that the content is licenced under Scots law, English law, or 
whatever).


I would, of course, be interested in seeing the views of both the Oxford team
and the BBC Creative Archive team, both of whom are closer to this and more
versed in the legal intricacies than I.

I am Director of a UK-spanning activity and would, in most cases, pick (any) 
one
of the licences. However, members of the organisation have differing
geographical remits with some covering only Scotland, only England, etc. I
would not currently feel able to recommend or require that Scotland-specific
activities taking place under the broader CIE umbrella be licenced under
English law.

If there is anything that the CIE *can* do to assist in moving towards
resolution here, please do not hesitate to ask.

Paul


-- 
Dr Paul Miller
Director, Common Information Environment

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Quoting Jonathan Mitchell <website3 AT jonathanmitchell.info>:

> This is the latest exchange of messages between Christiane Asschenfeldt of
> International Creative Commons and myself. As Damien Tambini agreed some
> time ago that he would copy Professor MacQueen and I in on further messages
> between his team and ICC, and as I have had no such messages, I have to
> assume that she is doing this entirely off her own bat without any input
> from the Oxford team- she has certainly had none from here that supports her
> decision.
> 
> My apologies to English readers for once more banging on about this, but
> this has the capability of damaging next Wednesday's launch for no benefit
> whatsoever and thus affecting CC in England as well.
> 
> Jonathan Mitchell
> 
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: Jonathan Mitchell <jonathanmitchell AT mac.com>
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:12:42 +0000
> To: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> Cc: <roland AT creativecommons.org>
> Subject: Re: CC Scotland
> 
> I feel like tearing my hair out! Do you and the Californians genuinely have
> no understanding that Scotland is a different jurisdiction and indeed is a
> different national culture, or of the harm you are potentially doing to
> goodwill? Think:-
> 
> 1. How could it seriously be suggested that a licence which has been
> developed for one jurisdiction, England and Wales, and which confers
> exclusive jurisdiction on the courts of England and Wales, could be put
> forward for use in another jurisdiction, Scotland? The draft licence worked
> up in Oxford states:
> > This Licence shall be governed by the law of England and Wales and the
> parties
> > irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England
> and
> > Wales.
> What this means is that if anyone in Scotland used this (which they won't)
> they would be regulated by the laws and courts of the next-door country!
> The BBC can use such a license, because it is a single organisation based in
> the English jurisdiction. Individuals in Scotland can't. So your takeup in
> Scotland will be zero.
> 
> 2. The CC-EW team have agreed. On 6 December, Prodromos Tsiavos wrote:
> > Jonathan’s point is valid: the CC licences that explicitly refer to the
> > jurisdiction of England and Wales will be henceforth called CC-EW. I have
> made
> > the respective changes and am attaching the relevant draft. I will also
> raise
> > the issue during the phone conference on the 8th of December and since the
> iCC
> > seem to be of the same opinion, we should consider the issue resolved
> So what you propose goes back on a consensus decision among English and
> Scottish participants.
> 
> 3. You cannot publicise such a license in Scotland or hope that it will
> receive anything other than justified criticism, when if you were to release
> it as what it is, an EW license, there would be no such criticism. This is
> totally unnecessary. In fact it is quite barmy.
> 
> Would you like to telephone me to discuss this some time this weekend before
> your egg hits the fan? Meanwhile I will copy this exchange (I have not
> copied any previous correspondence) to the mailing list. The English
> participants have also a right to know of these foolish decisions.
> 
> Jonathan
> --
> Jonathan Mitchell QC
> 
> Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
> Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
> Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
> Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh EH1 1RF,
> Scotland
> DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, Edinburgh 10
> 
> Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info
> 
> Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland.
> Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.
> 
> This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged material
> and are confidential to the intended recipient.
> 
> Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 220
> 2654; e-mail murraystable AT advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel should
> unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> 
> > From: Christiane Asschenfeldt <christiane AT creativecommons.org>
> > Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:29:54 -0800
> > To: jonathanmitchell AT mac.com
> > Cc: roland AT creativecommons.org, christiane AT creativecommons.org
> > Subject: CC Scotland
> > 
> > Dear Jonathan, 
> > 
> > thanks again for writing, and for your most valuable contribution to the
> > Creative Commons project. We appreciate your involvement very much.
> > 
> > The first deadline - which was set for the UK as a whole - is on January
> > 19th. After due reflection and discussion, in Berlin and California, it
> > looks as if we have to stick to the original schedule for the moment and
> > come up with a single UK licence for this date, i.e. one licence that
> > would include all of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. One
> > among many reasons for this is our collaboration with the BBC under one
> > single umbrella.
> > 
> > However, as this is only the next mile stone, and as the licences will
> > soon be revised, we would love to be able to work with you on a Scottish
> > version in the weeks to come. We envisage publication of such a specific
> > version by March or April.
> > 
> > We shall be in touch in due course to incorporate your recent comments.
> > 
> > Best, Christiane
> > 
> 
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
> 
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-- 
Dr Paul Miller
Director, Common Information Environment

e: p.miller AT jisc.ac.uk       m: +44 (7779) 669542
w: www.common-info.org.uk/   aim/ iChat/ Yahoo!: ciedirector

Participate in the "CIE Thoughts" Blog at www.common-info.org.uk/thoughts/
Keep current with the "CIE News" Blog at  www.common-info.org.uk/news/