Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Rolf" <rolf.furuli AT sf-nett.no>]

Dear Stephen,

I like your post; you ask questions in order to ascertain the real issues, 
and to find the logic behind different viewpoints. I will try to clarify my 
position.

No one can deny the following regarding the LXX: All fragments up to 50 CE 
have YHWH or IAO; the manuscripts from the second through the fifth century 
have KS (If I remember correct, there  is one late manuscript of Esther which 
has KURIOS). The most natural conclusion from these data is that the text of 
the LXX was changed (=corrupted) between 50 and 130 CE.

The normal way to translate proper names in a text is to render the name as 
closely as possible to the name in the source text, as closely as the stock 
of phonemes in the target language allow. So, a natural philological question 
regarding the LXX is: Why should the LXX translators use a substitute for 
YHWH and deviate from normal translation procedures? One argument has been: 
When the Greek translators started their work, probably in the third century 
BCE, the superstitious custom of not pronouncing YHWH but using )DNY instead 
of YHWH was already introduced; the Greek equivalent to YHWH is KURIOS, and 
the Greek translators used KURIOS in their translation instead of YHWH. The 
problem for this argument is that there is no evidence that (DNY was used as 
a substitute for YHWH before the common era, and 2) there is no evidence that 
KURIOS  was used in the original LXX. Moreover, the fact that there is no 
evidence of the use of KURIOS in Egypt with reference to kings and gods 
before the first century BCE speaks against the use of KURIOS in the LXX (see 
my  quote in another post).

As far as the NT text is concerned, I do not speak of anything as 
"self-evident." However, the oldest NT manuscripts (second century CE) has 
the same corrupt text (KS) as the LXX manuscripts of the same age. The most 
likely explanation is that the change in the NT manuscripts is of the same 
nature as the change made in the LXX manuscripts. And because YHWH/IAO was 
deleted in the LXX manuscripts and KS written instead, it is likely that what 
was deleted in the NT manuscripts was the same as that which was deleted in 
the LXX manuscripts, namely YHWH or IAO.

For example, according to Luke 4:17, 18, in the synagogue of Nazareth Jesus 
read aloud from the Hebrew text of Isaiah 61:1, where YHWH is written. How 
did Jesus pronounce God's name? And how did Luke write God's name? We do not 
know with certainty, because we do not possess the original scroll of Luke. 
But I see no reason why Jesus would not pronounce YHWH and Luke write YHWH in 
his scroll.  Jesus strongly condemned the Pharisees and the Sadducees because 
they had traditions and customs that violated the Tanakh. So even if the 
superstitious custom of substituting YHWH with )DNY was widespread in the 
first half of the first century CE,  Jesus'  strong condemnation of the 
traditions and customs that were contrary to the words of the Tanakh, 
strongly suggest that he would not have followed such a custom.

And, as I have stressed, there is no clear evidence for such a custom in BCE 
or in the days of Jesus. The 71 occurrences of )DNY in the DSS occur in only 
29 of the about 400 non-Biblical Hebrew manuscripts. So, the use of )DNY was 
not widespread, and most of the 71 examples can be explained as titles, not 
substitutes.  A great number of the 317 occurrences of YHWH in the DSS would 
on the other hand suggest that YHWH was still in use between 200 BCE and 70 
CE. We may also find evidence against the substitution of YHWH by (DNY (and 
KURIOS)  in the Greek manuscript 8HevXIIgr from the first century BCE or 
first century CE. In Mica 1:2  in the MT we find )DNY YHWH. In this 
manuscript we find YHWH in Paleo-Hebrew script. Before YHWH there is a lacuna 
which exactly would fit the size of the Greek word KURIOS. E. Tov, "The Greek 
Minor Prophets Scroll from Nahal Hever, p. 85 reconstructs the text as 
"KURIOS YHWH," and in a footnote expresses his belief that the manuscript 
"probably distinguished between the Tetragram and 'adonay." If both words 
were read as KURIOS, the text would read KURIOS KURIOS, whicch is unlikely.

Hurtado has made a very fine study of the nomina sacra. As you suggests, he 
connects the nomina sacra with the Jewish gematria, which means ascribing 
religious significance to the numerical value of alphabetic letters. If 
Hurtado's view  is correct, it is also superstition that was the reason for 
the introduction of the nomina sacra. This would even more emphasize that the 
nomina sacra represent curruptions of the LXX and NT text.

I will now like to hear your opinion regarding the issue:

1) Why would the Jew, Jesus from Naszareth not pronounce YHWH with its 
consonants and vowels when he read from Isaiah 61:1?

2) Why would Luke and the other writers delete YHWH from quotes from the 
Tanakh and use KURIOS instead?


After you have expressed your opinion, I would like to hear on which data you 
build.




Best regards,


Rolf Furuli
Stavern
Norway




Onsdag 12. Juni 2013 01:31 CEST skrev Stephen Shead <sshead.email AT gmail.com>:

> Dear Rolf,
>
> Thank you for the clarification regarding your logic - I didn't realise the
> importance the nomen sacrum KS had for your argument. That does raise a
> follow-up question for me. But just to see whether I've got it right now:
> the evidence we have is:
>
> LXX: YHWH, IAO --> KS  (Others disagree, but I'm happy to run with this.)
> NT:  ?? --> KS
>
> And so you consider this to be evidence (or perhaps just self-evident) that
> the ?? was originally YHWH/IAO, and not κυριος nor even KS itself. Correct?
>
> This logic is still beyond me (given the NT MS evidence, and leaving aside
> any "it would have been unthinkable" argument). But my follow-up question
> is to do with the direction of influence. Given that you say there are no
> extant pre-Christian era OG/LXX manuscripts with KS, are there actually any
> post-CE LXX manuscripts that are clearly of Jewish provenance and have KS -
> say, between the 1st and 3rd centuries?
>
> I ask, because I'm wondering whether your evidence would just as easily (or
> perhaps more easily) fit with the following scenario:
> LXX YHWH/IAO  -->  NT ??  -->  NT KS  -->  LXX KS
>
> And if Hurtado's proposal about the origin and development of the nomina
> sacra are correct,** I wonder if that doesn't make this order of influence
> more likely (whether or not the LXX was originally YHWH or κυριος) - i.e.
> his argument that the bar over the top suggests that IH was the first nomen
> sacrum used (= 18 = Heb. "life"), and they multiplied from there. (Any
> other LXX/manuscript experts want to weigh in on that one?)
>
> Anyway, if this is the order of influence, would you still say that the ??
> must self-evidently have been YHWH/IAO, rather than κυριος or KS?
>
> ** L. W. Hurtado, "The Origin of the Nomina Sacra: A Proposal", *JBL* 117/4
> (1998), 655-73
>
> Best regards,
> Stephen Shead.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: "Rolf" <rolf.furuli AT sf-nett.no>
> > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Cc:
> > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 18:42:17 +0200
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] G. Geroux and the Name
> > Dear Stephen,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your apology.  I give my answer below.
> >
> > Mandag 10. Juni 2013 12:21 CEST skrev Stephen Shead <
> > sshead.email AT gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Dear Rolf,
> > >
> > > I'm still struggling to see how you can use the language you are using -
> > > like "graphic evidence for a corruption of the LXX and NT text", lumping
> > > the two together as if they were on the same level.
> > >
> > > Let's see if I can understand your reasoning on the "graphic evidence"
> > > (please correct me if it is wrong):
> > >
> > > 1. The manuscript evidence for the LXX proves that the original text had
> > > YHWH, and at a later time this was (inexcusably) changed to κυριος 
> > > (note:
> > > clearly a different word). Thus, graphic evidence for the "corruption" 
> > > of
> > > the LXX.
> >
> > RF: We cannot prove how the original LXX rendered the Hebrew YHWH, because
> > we do not have the LXX autographs. All we can do is to look at the 
> > evidence
> > that is extant. And this evidence show that at least until 50 CE, YHWH was
> > found in LXX manuscripts. Between 50 CE and around 130 CE, YHWH and IAO
> > were removed from the LXX manuscripts and replaced by KS. The task of a
> > copyist was to reproduce the text as faithfully as possible in the new
> > manuscript he was making. When a proper name is removed and an appellative
> > (a title) is introduced instead, this means that the text is corrupted. I
> > cannot think of a better example of textual corruption than this. Graphic
> > evidence means that we can see the evidence in the texts, we need not make
> > conjectures. The graphic evidence for the deletion of YHWH is visible for
> > anyone who wants to look.
> > >
> > > (Incidentally, I don't think the evidence for this is very strong - 
> > > there
> > > simply aren't a lot of manuscripts on which to base the conclusion, and
> > > Martin has presented balancing evidence. But it doesn't bother me if 
> > > your
> > > conclusion is correct, so I'm not going to challenge it here.)
> >
> > RF: You must consider the evidence, and it is your privilege to draw your
> > own conclusions.
> > >
> > > 2. There are also LXX manuscripts which have the shortened form ΚΣ. That
> > > is, in the case of the LXX, your reconstruction is YHWH --> κυριος -->
> > ΚΣ.
> >
> > There are LXX manuscripts with KS, but the earliest of these manuscripts
> > are from the second century CE. It is supposed that KS is an abbreviation
> > for KURIOS, and this is likely. The graphic evidence indicate only two
> > steps and not three:
> >  YHWH ----> KS
> > >
> > > 3. The "graphic evidence" in the case of the NT also shows the
> > > change κυριος --> ΚΣ (not a new word, as we have observed).
> >
> > No, there is no graphic evidence for KURIOS in the LXX, only for KS. In
> > other words: Someone consciously deleted YHWH from the LXX manuscripts
> > between 50 and 130 CE, and there is no evidence that the person(s) used 
> > the
> > appellative KURIOS instead of YHWH. The evidence only show that YHWH  was
> > deleted and that the replacement was KS.
> > >
> > > 4. Therefore, it's obvious that the progression in the case of the NT 
> > > was
> > > also YHWH --> κυριος --> ΚΣ.
> >
> > >
> > > Is that it??
> >
> > RF: Not exactly so.  The word KURIOS in not a part of the evidence at all,
> > only KS. In the NT manuscripts from the second century CE, we find KS, the
> > very word that represents a corruption of the LXX text. I cannot imagine
> > that you will claim that this abbreviation was found in the NT autographs,
> > and if you do not make this claim, the abbreviation KS in NT manuscripts 
> > is
> > a change of the text. We do no know which word was used for YHWH in the
> > original NT text, because we do not have the autographs. But the pattern 
> > of
> > the LXX is interesting:
> >
> > LXX; YHWH, IAO -----> KS
> >
> > NT:     ???------->        KS
> >
> > Philologians consider all kinds of evidence that are available. In> > 
> > addition to manuscript evidence from the source language and the target
> > language, they consider historical, sociological, and theological issues,
> > scribal habits and many other things. If we look at the use of KURIOS from
> > a historical point of view, we find that the word occurred rather late in
> > Egypt where the LXX was translated.  KURIOS as a noun occurs for the first
> > time in Greece in the fourth century BCE. Its reference was a slave owner
> > or the legal guardian of a wife or girl. Later it was applied to gods and
> > rulers in Greece. With few exceptions, KURIOS was never used in Egypt with
> > reference to gods or rulers prior to the first century BCE. (See
> > Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol III, p 1049). If the
> > translation of the LXX started in the third century BCE, it is a question
> > if the word KURIOS was available for the translators at all.
> >
> > If we as philologians look at the text of the Tanakh and its religion, we
> > find absolutely no reason why the LXX translators should use a substitute
> > for YHWH. To the contrary, the text explicitly says that God's name shall
> > be used to time indefinite. Even if the custom of reading )DNY instead of
> > YHWH was widespread before our common era, why should the NT writers 
> > follow
> > such a superstitious custom?  Jesus and the NT writers condemn 
> > superstition
> > and the traditions of men that contradict the statements of God (this is
> > also relevant philologically speaking). And the most important thing:
> > Several times I have asked if any list member can present evidence that
> > )DNY was used as a SUBSTITUTE for YHWH before 50 CE. I have received no
> > answers except one. I will in another post show that the references to the
> > DSS in this post do not support the mentioned substitution.
> >
> > >
> > > I'm also still wrestling with your language of "corruption" in the NT.
> > > Which of the following are you implying?
> > >
> > > 1. The "corruption" was the change κυριος --> ΚΣ. I've already indicated
> > > that it is ludicrous to put this in the same basket as YHWH --> κυριος,
> > and
> > > talk about evidence of corruption in the LXX and the NT with regard to
> > the
> > > Name.
> >
> > RF: The word KURIOS is not mentioned in the manuscripts, only KS. The
> > corruption is YHWH, IAO ----> KS.
> > >
> > > 2. The "corruption" was the supposed change YHWH --> κυριος **in the 
> > > text
> > > of the NT itself** (e.g. the original NT authors quoted the Hebrew
> > > Scriptures in Greek, but using YHWH directly, and later copyists changed
> > > this to κυριος). Again, there is no "graphic evidence" for such a
> > > corruption - it is speculation.
> >
> > RF: We do not know how YHWH was rendered in the original LXX, but all the
> > evidence suggest that God's name in some form was retained. We do not know
> > how YHWH was rendered in the original NT, but the graphic evidence is that
> > the corrupt word in the LXX is KS, and that NT manuscripts have KS as 
> > well.
> > This suggests that the same corruption occurred in the NT. I would not use
> > the word "speculation," because there are many interesting data to review.
> > I have no direct evidence that KURIOS occurred in the NT autographs, and I
> > have no direct evidence that YHWH of IAW occurred in the NT autographs.
> > Therefore we must consider the extant data and draw out conclusion.> > >
> > > 3. It would have been an unthinkable "corruption" if the original NT
> >
> > > authors had, in the process of quoting the Hebrew Scriptures, changed
> > YHWH
> > > by "translating" it as κυριος. Unthinkable - therefore they didn't.
> > >
> > > Number 3 is what you got to in your final paragraph to Jerry. Is this
> > not,
> > > in fact, the entire argument? (And ... though I hate to bring up the
> >
> > > elephant sitting in the corner ... isn't it only unthinkable given your
> > > theological stance? It's not unthinkable if that is in fact what they
> > did.)
> > > But all the evidence goes against your reasoning: zero NT textual> > 
> > > evidence,
> > > and historically highly improbable to have happened with no manuscript
> > > trace.
> > >
> > > OK, I'll bow out of the discussion now - I've said my piece, and it's
> > gone
> > > on long enough. Happy for you to have the last word.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Stephen Shead.
> > >