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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] qamatz gadol qamatz qatan

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  • From: "Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
  • To: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] qamatz gadol qamatz qatan
  • Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:21:21 -0300

isaac,

now you took me by surprise. let me get it right:

1) you choose from blau the part which you like (qamac qatan=qamaz gadol) and
reject the part that
you dont like (qamaz qatan was different than qamaz gadol)?

2) you agree WITH MASORETES that qamac gadol=qamac qatan?

nir cohen

PS in my time (second half 20th cent) everybody in israel was saying CORFAT,
even if it does not come from coref (come to think of it,
is this so obvious?) the CARFAT version is, as far as i see, a result of
simple niqud illiteracy of our days.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:30:15 -0500, Isaac Fried wrote
>
> I am often accused of being an outsider, a dissenter, a BADLAN. So I went
> directly to smack-center, to the URIYM WETUMIYM of Hebrew "phonology" and
> "morphology", to 
>
> תורת ההגה והצורות של של לשון המקרא  
>
> by Y. Blau to see what he has to say about the qatan and gadol. And this is
> what I find on page 65
>
> ... הקמץ, שמבטאו (הן של הגדול הן של הקטו) היה כפי הנראה ɔ בפי נקדני טבריה.
> אילו הבחינו נקדני טבריה בין תנועות ארוכות לקצרות , כי כי אז לא היו מסמנים
> את הקמץ הגדול, שהוא תנועה ארוכה מבחינה הסטורית ( ā לפחות בשלב הקדם-טבריני),
> ואת הקמץ הקטן, שהוא תנועה קצרה מבחינה היסטורית (u קצרה) באותו הסימן ... כפי
> שראינו, בפי נקדני טבריה מבטא הקמץ - קטו כגדול - היה תמיד ɔ כלומר תנועה
> מעוגלת נמוכה-למחצה. עצם ההבחנה בין קמץ גדול לקטן זרה אפוא למסורת טבריה.
>
> I ignore the reveries about the "historical origins" of the "short" and
> "long" vowels as well as the "rounded semi-low-level" nature of this vowel,
> and am left with the understanding that he also thinks that there is no
> qatan and gadol.
>
> I wish he would have reached the same conclusion about the schwa "mobile',
> giving us thereby a much needed helping hand to clear Hebrew grammar of
> this pest.
>
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2012, at 1:26 PM, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. wrote:
> as your one-proponent theory suggests

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