Biblical Hebrew Forum

[B Chan <bh-chan AT hotmail.com>]

"People untrammelled by earthy authority", to my mind, is NOT the same as 
"people who do not accept any authority".
 
There are people so powerful that the do not have to listen to anybody, if 
they are so minded! That does not suggest that they will probably lead lives 
that are uncivilized, anarchic, etc... I know quite a few figures like that 
myself!
 
If you told me that my nephew is slated for a company transfer, and he will 
soon be so high up that "he does not need to listen to anybody", well to be 
honest I do not feel anything immediately negative about that.
 
You may not agree with me, but I hope I have made my point clear that the 
authority argument is not very strong.
 
 
Betty Chan
 
 
 
 

 
> From: lbr AT sprynet.com
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 03:48:52 -0500
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Gen 16:12 Hand Against?
> 
> Ms. Chan suggested that "'People untrammeled by earthly authority generally
> end up in conflict with others' is one such bias."
> 
> As the writer of the quoted observation, I'm not sure I perceive any bias in
> what seems to me a reasonably supportable sociological observation. People
> who do not accept authority (and the rule of law that goes with it)
> generally do end up in conflict with others. Against whom does the
> observation express any bias?
> 
> Lewis Reich
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of B Chan
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 3:31 AM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Gen 16:12 Hand Against?
> 
> 
> Karl: could you share with me the occurrences of yd b- with me, please? I
> would like to look at the verbal constructs. I know one occurrence in Ruth,
> but I'm not aware of the others.
> 
> Everybody: I guess what I want to arrive at is what would be a fair
> translation if we were to do this "ex nihilo" as it were, relying on
> previous translations as a guide but not slavishly tending to negative
> connotations that have been the hallmark of extant English translations.
> 
> 
> The issues for us are:
> 
> 1. He will be a (wild ass? wild stallion? free-ranging horse? "free
> spirit"?) of a man
> 2. His hand will be (against? in co-operation? in trade?) with all and all
> with him.
> 
> 
> What, really, are the arguments for and against each of the choices? Harsh
> as it may sound, I suspect that extant translations have some biases at
> play. "People untrammeled by earthly authority generally end up in conflict
> with others" is one such bias I think is inconclusive. Would the angel be
> describing "warlike Bedouin tribes" or "powerful Arab traders"?
> 
> May I state the issue for discussion this way: if we were Hagar, listening
> to this encouragement/prophecy/pontification without explanantion, without
> hindsight, what would we have understood as the literal meaning of all this?
> 
> 
> I am enjoying this discussion, and I look forward to many more of your
> erudite comments.
> 
> 
> Betty Chan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 06:19:54 -0800
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Gen 16:12 Hand Against?
> From: kwrandolph AT gmail.com
> To: bh-chan AT hotmail.com
> CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> B Chan:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:29 PM, B Chan <bh-chan AT hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> The entry for "Yado bakol" at
> http://www.learnhebrew.org.il/print/2010/july5.htm is strangely ironic.
> 
> It claims that the etymology comes from Genesis 16:12 which (it asserts) was
> a "definitely negative" meaning.
> 
> Then it goes on to say that "in recent years it has turned semi-positive".
> 
> Alas, what did the Genesis original communicate to Hagar!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The promise starts in verse 10: she will have many descendants, a blessing
> especially in those days. Then in verse 11: she will have a son. In many
> societies, having a son is preferable to having a daughter, even today. Both
> of these promises are very positive, especially in those days.
> 
> 
> But when I look at the phrase YD B-, it is found over 20 times, and it
> refers to attacking and warfare, and often, though not always, victory over
> the enemies. So in the total context, we have a person who will be very
> fruitful, multiple descendants, untamable, involved in warfare with all
> around him. Yet there is indication that personal relations between him and
> Isaac remained amicable.
> 
> 
> So it looks as if the traditional interpretation is correct after all.
> 
> 
> Karl W. Randolph. 
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