Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>]

fred burlingame tensorpath at gmail.com 
Fri Dec 24 10:27:16 EST 2010 
Previous message: [b-hebrew] Was the MT for public consumption? 
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] 
fred burlingame wrote:
in the message posted below

>>>
"facts vs. faith ...

we have complete:

a. a 5th century greek manuscript;

b. a 10th century hebrew manuscript; and

c. a 15th century aramaic manuscript,

of the same story.

the rest is faith.

regards,

fred burlingame
>>>

Dave writes,

I would add to the list:  
d. The dead Sea Scrolls, with the understanding [which I not sure is true
or false,]  that the Hebrew Consonants that occur in the Dead Sea Scrolls
are almost 100% identical to the Hebrew Consonants that are found in the
Extant Leningrad Codex of 1008-1010 A.D.  

Now fred burlingame raises the issue of "faith" to the list, and  I
assume he adds "faith" to the list as a Jewish believer in Old Testament
Scripture, while I add "faith" to my list as a Christian believer in the
Hebrew Leningrad Codex, who has been taught that "All Scripture is given
by inspiration of God".

It is at least possible that the faith issue is more difficult for me to
deal with than it is for Fred to deal with it..

I am deeply involved in the issue of what God's name is, while it is my
impression  that is not an issue that Jewish Believers are troubled with.

Although I have discovered in my study of Codex L. that 6 different
vocalizations of YHWH occur in Codex L.,  I think of those six variant
vocalizations of YHWH that occur in Codex L. as a puzzle to be dealt
with, rather than some insurmountable obstacle  to deal with.

I pause at this moment and ask the moderators of this Discussion Board if
I should continue on my present line of dialogue,  or should I just
completely withdraw from this particular thread.

Dave Donnelly


On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 at
juno.com>wrote:

> K Randolph kwrandolph at gmail.com
> Fri Dec 24 08:06:48 EST 2010  wrote:
>
> "The Leningrad Codex is merely a preservation of a document that was
> written
> mostly during that period, with additional marks to aid the non-scholar
> in
> its reading."
>
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Isn't the text of the Leningrad Codex believed to be an accurate
> representation of the pronunciation of  a
> much earlier  "Unpointed Hebrew Text" as it was preserved in  a Jewish
> Oral Tradition?
>
> Or did an earlier version of a Masoretic Text accomplish the
preservation
> of the pronunciation of the "Unpointed Hebrew Text"?
>
> It was my impression that every variant of YHWH found in Codex L. that
is
> now rendered as "Adonai", and that every variant of YHWH found in Codex
> L. that is now rendered as "Elohim",  was pointed as it is today,
because
> of  information found in a preserved oral tradition of  how the Jewish
> people pronounced  the "Unpointed Hebrew Text  of their day.
>
> Don't the consonants that occur in the Leningrad Codex almost match
> perfectly with those consonants found in the dead sea scrolls?
>
>
> Dave Donnelly
> ____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
Mortgage Rates Hit 2.99%
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d14d0ebdfc238206f3st05duc
>From tensorpath AT gmail.com  Fri Dec 24 12:40:08 2010
Return-Path: <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 74BD64C024; Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:40:08 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
        DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
        RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from mail-bw0-f49.google.com (mail-bw0-f49.google.com
        [209.85.214.49])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713B24C084
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:40:06 -0500 
(EST)
Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so8230384bwz.36
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:40:05 -0800 
(PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to
        :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
        bh=kBtSEDflj8aGNwHuLLvIGWJ3dzD8u/ei40R6Nu22uXI=;
        b=s0tgosRVWKGY2v6YwHhJ0bCWiRZ0gxEjRIffCkayZmb/dmtq9NlQPc5mNv2bhaOOqs
        XvLhx9RDhlQVqODgCC9LScbS68FAcVUI1GepS6DEyH2daKP6j7AaLcGzrUV3GYUaCZhI
        6lX9EaTvOfb40odSu1eq9s5XKnwQjFQMdcOMU=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
        :cc:content-type;
        b=u07gdQUeLCydjpVo9l3+alMjBP3AMCLAPPp2bMwdSe77h0DW64+AsqY5xYUNChYi3A
        DXQzszqtx5I0q2QAY8ZiZtfI7u9nNdQwOzdnAfwYSyA3BRcOIniBjZJwoacbwrmL4baE
        bXJyKxlDL7GLKRu21TtXpeIl9aoZrgUPSyuSE=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.204.118.138 with SMTP id v10mr33385bkq.94.1293212405614; Fri,
        24 Dec 2010 09:40:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.118.205 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:40:05 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <20101224.085640.20190.382363 AT mailpop10.dca.untd.com>
References: <20101224.085640.20190.382363 AT mailpop10.dca.untd.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:40:05 -0600
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZSVFcN1SsNtT+Mk2k6z6FNtHdj5UVO5qU9+_9 AT mail.gmail.com>
From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
To: David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.13
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Was the MT for public consumption?
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:40:08 -0000

the dead sea scrolls do testify that both language and story, (substance and
form), of the leningrad codex, preceded that document by at least 1,000
years. Beyond that fact, the migration to faith begins with the highly
incomplete dead sea scrolls.

i mentioned faith only as a point of contrast from fact, and not to begin
discussion of faith, here.

i also note that isaiah 9:4 refers to a number of different names for God.

regards,

fred burlingame

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 10:55 AM, David P Donnelly
<davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>wrote:

> fred burlingame tensorpath at gmail.com
> Fri Dec 24 10:27:16 EST 2010
> Previous message: [b-hebrew] Was the MT for public consumption?
> Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
> fred burlingame wrote:
> in the message posted below
>
> >>>
> "facts vs. faith ...
>
> we have complete:
>
> a. a 5th century greek manuscript;
>
> b. a 10th century hebrew manuscript; and
>
> c. a 15th century aramaic manuscript,
>
> of the same story.
>
> the rest is faith.
>
> regards,
>
> fred burlingame
> >>>
>
> Dave writes,
>
> I would add to the list:
> d. The dead Sea Scrolls, with the understanding [which I not sure is true
> or false,]  that the Hebrew Consonants that occur in the Dead Sea Scrolls
> are almost 100% identical to the Hebrew Consonants that are found in the
> Extant Leningrad Codex of 1008-1010 A.D.
>
> Now fred burlingame raises the issue of "faith" to the list, and  I
> assume he adds "faith" to the list as a Jewish believer in Old Testament
> Scripture, while I add "faith" to my list as a Christian believer in the
> Hebrew Leningrad Codex, who has been taught that "All Scripture is given
> by inspiration of God".
>
> It is at least possible that the faith issue is more difficult for me to
> deal with than it is for Fred to deal with it..
>
> I am deeply involved in the issue of what God's name is, while it is my
> impression  that is not an issue that Jewish Believers are troubled with.
>
> Although I have discovered in my study of Codex L. that 6 different
> vocalizations of YHWH occur in Codex L.,  I think of those six variant
> vocalizations of YHWH that occur in Codex L. as a puzzle to be dealt
> with, rather than some insurmountable obstacle  to deal with.
>
> I pause at this moment and ask the moderators of this Discussion Board if
> I should continue on my present line of dialogue,  or should I just
> completely withdraw from this particular thread.
>
> Dave Donnelly
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 at
> juno.com>wrote:
>
> > K Randolph kwrandolph at gmail.com
> > Fri Dec 24 08:06:48 EST 2010  wrote:
> >
> > "The Leningrad Codex is merely a preservation of a document that was
> > written
> > mostly during that period, with additional marks to aid the non-scholar
> > in
> > its reading."
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> >
> > Isn't the text of the Leningrad Codex believed to be an accurate
> > representation of the pronunciation of  a
> > much earlier  "Unpointed Hebrew Text" as it was preserved in  a Jewish
> > Oral Tradition?
> >
> > Or did an earlier version of a Masoretic Text accomplish the
> preservation
> > of the pronunciation of the "Unpointed Hebrew Text"?
> >
> > It was my impression that every variant of YHWH found in Codex L. that
> is
> > now rendered as "Adonai", and that every variant of YHWH found in Codex
> > L. that is now rendered as "Elohim",  was pointed as it is today,
> because
> > of  information found in a preserved oral tradition of  how the Jewish
> > people pronounced  the "Unpointed Hebrew Text  of their day.
> >
> > Don't the consonants that occur in the Leningrad Codex almost match
> > perfectly with those consonants found in the dead sea scrolls?
> >
> >
> > Dave Donnelly
> > ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> Mortgage Rates Hit 2.99%
> If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d14d0ebdfc238206f3st05duc
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>