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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Ancient Hebrew Research Center (was: Plural Pronomial Suffixes used in a Singular sense)

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  • From: "Paul Zellmer" <pzellmer AT sc.rr.com>
  • To: "'Joseph Roberts'" <josephroberts3 AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: 'B-Hebrew' <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ancient Hebrew Research Center (was: Plural Pronomial Suffixes used in a Singular sense)
  • Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 07:46:05 -0500

Joseph,

I looked briefly at the site, specifically trying to find the Gen 3:15
discussion. I was interested in what you said about translations that have
the plural rather than singular. My search came up empty. Could you give a
more complete url for the parsing that started this thread?

As for the site, one area that would be absolutely groundbreaking would be
if Mr. Benner could actually come up with a truly working mechanical
translation. (I'm writing tongue-in-cheek.) Many have tried, so he would
be the first to make it work! Word-for-word translation between any two
languages has never been completely successful, and it becomes even less
successful as the languages become less related. That is why complete word
studies have always been a part of any successful translation, whatever the
text. His mechanical translation is merely the first step in any
translation, then one has to move to context and idiom to adjust the wording
of the translation to accurately communicate the concept expressed in the
original. In general, any concept that can be expressed in one language can
be expressed in another. Good translation is an accurate transmission of
the *concepts*, not the *vocabulary*.

Hope this helps,

Paul Zellmer

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:52 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Plural Pronomial Suffixes used in a Singular sense

I appreciate everyone's help, I have just begun exploring Hebrew. I actually
read about this on Ancient-Hebrew.org and they did not give an explanation
as far as the translations that have teh plural instead of the singular I
believe that is more theological and based on the word Zerah not the
pronomial suffix (my apologies). On Another note anyone have any comments or
opinion about the Ancient Hebrew Research Centre?
-Joseph Roberts

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com> wrote:

> (Steve Miller)
> >
> > Thanks Donald. I was going to contact the maker of my verb table to see
> if
> > that was an error, but now I see that it's not an error.
> >
> > It seemed like it was an error to me because Hab 3:16 is the 1 and only
> > instance (according to BibleWorks) of a 1cp accusative suffix on an
> > imperfect verb that has a dagesh in the nun. With only 1 instance,
> wouldn't
> > it be more likely to be either a mistake in the points, or maybe the
> > accusative suffix is actually 3ms, as translated by some?
> >
> > ______
>
> It is alike that the instance in Hb 3:16 isn't but a literal copy, by
> mimetism, of the same word that appears in Gn 49:19.
> In a general way, it is quite true that the third person singular
masculine
> -nu has dagesh while the first person (common) plural -nu lacks it.
>
> Now..... there are exceptions.
> Look here
> www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t1700p.html
>
> Also compare (WRENW, our skin (Lm 5:10) with (WDENNW, still he/him (Gn
> 28:22) ----> -NW (our) versus -NNW (he, him, his)
>
> Heartly,
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > > From: Donald R. Vance, Ph.D. Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 10:28 AM
> > > To: steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
> > > Cc: 'Pere Porta'; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Plural Pronomial Suffixes used in a Singular
> > sense
> > >
> > > Not true. The nun energicum occurs with the 1st common plural
> accusative
> > suffix
> > > as well: Habakkuk 3:16 On Nov 8, 2010, at 5:44 AM, Steve Miller wrote:
> > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Pere Porta
> > > >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:29 AM
> > > >> To: Joseph Roberts
> > > >> Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Plural Pronomial Suffixes used in a
Singular
> > > >> sense
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> (JR) I was reading about translations surrounding Genesis 3:15. It
> > > >>> was interesting to note that though many translate a portion of
the
> > > >>> verse as "it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his
> > > >>> heel." the verb "tesuphenu"
> > > >>> has the first person plural ending yet it is translated as third
> > > >>> person singular. Is this a theological leaning or sometimes can a
> > > >>> plural ending be used in a singular sense?
> > > >>> Joseph Roberts
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> __________
> > > >>
> > > >> Compare, Joseph, the following two patterns:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.oham.net/out/PS-t/PS-t1996.html
> > > >> and
> > > >> http://www.oham.net/out/PS-t/PS-t1995p.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you see some difference between them?
> > > >>
> > > >> Remark: when -nu = -hu = him/it, then the nun has dagesh, while
when
> > > >> -nu =
> > > > us,
> > > >> then it lacks it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Pere Porta
> > > >> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > [Steve Miller] Thanks Pere. You are correct. My verb table program
> > > > erroneously shows a dagesh for both for this particular verb.
> > > > -Steve Miller
> > > > Detroit
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
> "Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
> (1Cor 15:32)
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>



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