Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Randall:

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com> wrote:

> Randall Buth wrote:
> >>
> > However, how can one have true immersion language learning,
> > when we don’t
> > even know what its pronunciation was?
>
> This seems to suffer from an all-or-none fallacy.


That is not what is meant, rather if there is to be communication, there
must be agreement on which pronunciation is to be used. Otherwise, one would
end up like what was in China, where there was a literary standard for
writing that all Chinese shared, but people could not speak to each other
unless they were from at most nearby towns and villages.


> I was just
> talking to someone yesterday who SPEAKS Latin. He even
> uses a 'modern' pronunciation. He doesn't mind that it is not
> exactly like Cicero (i.e. KIKERO to academics). What he has
> noticed is that his reading and general feel is much better
> than before he could speak, and that those who do not
> speak Latin do not get into the language in the same way
> and to the same depth. Maybe your mileage varies, but this
> seemed pretty much on target. And I suspect that students
> who could handle an oral Latin lecture 3-4 centuries ago
> could read Latin literature much more comprehensively and
> accurately and appreciatively than someone today who only
> learns to painfully crank out compositions, if they even get
> to that level.
>

>From other discussions, it appears that pronunciation is only the first of
worries, in making a modern version of Biblical Hebrew. For example, if we
want to make neologisms so that we can make conversations rather than just
parroting Biblical sentences (the same way as in modern Latin), how would we
go about it? What rules would we follow? If we can’t even agree on how to
define words, whether by semantic field or by underlying action, how can we
make such rules? If we don’t agree whether the binyanym signify etymology or
inflection, how can we tell if those rules are accurate?

In short, with the understanding of Biblical Hebrew still so uncertain, is
it not hubris to claim that we can make an immersion method to learn the
language and have it be accurate?

Incidentally, my general impression of sentences you wrote in another
message sounded stilted, like translations by students from English to
Hebrew.


> …
> It looks like you are confusing the language, the "system/schema", with
> the interpretation and reading of particular verses. (Or maybe you
> don't even believe that CvCCvC verb-patterns existed in BH?)
>

Clarification: for example, when context and meaning indicate that a word
should be pointed as a sheggolate noun, and the text has it pointed as a
verb, then the pointing is wrong. This is something that must be recognized
on a case by case basis, not a system wide philosophical consideration.

 With a language,
> a person can rapidly speak in a language and then 'zero in' on
> specific details as appropriate. A modern English speaker can read
> Shakespeare, but adjust for the minor vowel differences from
> modern English, if and when necessary.


If reading it quickly, understanding only about 80% but getting the gist of
things, then I can read Shakespeare. But if I want to read it in depth with
understanding (the way I want to read Tanakh), then I have to treat it as a
cognate language, with more differences between it and modern English than
exist between modern Norwegian and modern Swedish.


> (Shakespeare was 85-90%
> of the way to modern English on a trajectory from Chaucerian
> pronunciation. The same can even be done for Chaucer even with
> its more complete mis-match with modern English. Almost every
> Chaucerian vowel is 'off' from modern English, but we can
> discuss that or ignore it as desired, for the most part. )
>

Chaucer was almost easier to read, because it is different enough that I
don’t expect to read it with understanding.

>
> ha-menuHa heHela, `atta. approx.
> "The break (lit. rest) has begun, now."
> harem et ha-eben ve-hashlek sham. im ha-`ets ha-maTTara ha-tukal
> le-hakkotah? this is first week stuff.
>

The above is a case in point—I don’t know your transliteration schema, I
have never seen it described anywhere, further I have been experimenting
with different pronunciation schemas to see how they fit the text (e.g.
reading the text as CV with all written letters full consonants gives a
rhythm in poetry that is absent in other pronunciation schemas) so I am no
longer familiar with modern pronunciation, as a result, I often do not know
which spellings your transliterations point to, hence I often do not
understand them.

>
> So, if you prefer to not speak the language in any of its attested
> dialects,
>

Well, Biblical Hebrew is not attested as a spoken language, and if one wants
to learn Biblical Hebrew, he should not confuse his mind with other
cognates—that brings up problems, doesn’t it?


> Just be aware that such a method does not lead to internalization or
> thinking with/in a language.


I don’t pretend to think that my pronunciation is accurate Biblical Hebrew,
but I have found that comprehension goes up when read out loud.

However, there are some passages, e.g. Kings and Chronicles, where I can
almost speed read chapters at a time without having to stop and think what
an individual word means.


> …
> So why do some teachers want to consider a communicative
> approach?
> It will widen the gate of success for a majority of students and
> makes possible higher attainment for those for follow through.
>

Agreed, if it is accurate.

>
> … It was about to widen/deepern.
> He could not really think in Arabic. But he was going to start
> working more truly from within, even though a modern Arabic
> dialect is probably even farther apart from full, classical Arabic
> than modern Hebrew is from BH. Imagine that. And 'bravo' for
> the brave Austrian.
>

Before trying out different pronunciation schemas to see how they work, I
used to think in Biblical Hebrew, but kept on running into situations where
I wanted to express ideas where there was no vocabulary in Biblical Hebrew.
But I have to admit, that in experimenting, my fluency in thinking has gone
down. Understanding the written word has continued to improve.

>
> yirbu kemohu. may there be more like him.
>
> --
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> randallbuth AT gmail.com
> Biblical Language Center
> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
>

Karl W. Randolph.