Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>]

(PP) To my sense the true issue is this:
Let us consider BY (1S 1:26,2) or LY (Rt  1:20,8). Is this "a preposition +
suffix" or "a pronoun + prefix"?
BW takes the Y as a suffix attached to a preposition. But the other
viewpoint is, methinks, good as well.
Is BW mistaken? No, they chose one of the two possible viewpoints: that's
all.

As for your other question on Ek 2:10.12: you're right that a conjunction
does never have a suffix: see W:CiY, *and fleet* (Is 33:21,17), which a good
parallel to WFHiY in spite of the difference :/F in the W.

Remark that in today Israeli Hebrew suffix HY is also used to indicate the
singular 3rd person feminine as in H:AR"HiY, here *she* is!
(It is also used to generate some adjective forms: )AB:HiY, (male) paternal
or fatherly)

Pere Porta
________
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com> wrote:

>  Pere Porta wrote:
>
>  (JS) I know that the lemma in ec3:18,11 is <H"M> (which was listed in my
>> question).
>>
> (PP) No, you did not list <H"M>. You listed <H"N> and <HEM>, but not <H"M>
>
> (JS) Actually I did. Here's a quote from my original post:
> *****************************
>
> I will start out with two questions:
>
> My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
> <HEM> as a Base:
> ec3:18,11    | $:/HEM                    | P  $E@Pr  /  B  H"M@pi3mp
> ****************************************************
>
> If you are talking about the first grouping of 9 that I had listed, the
> first one is <H"N>, but that group isn't involved in my question about
> <HEM>. Anyway, doesn't matter, as we are on the same page now. :)
>
>
>
>
>> (JS) My question is, when looking at the word, what are the "red flags"
>> telling you that the <HEM> ending on this word is not a 3mp suffix based on
>> the <HM> lemma, but rather an independent 3mp pronoun based on the <H"M>
>> lemma?
>>
>> (PP) The "red flags" are:
>>
> 1. Whenever H"M or HEM comes alone (namely without a prefix as in Ex
> 5:7,10)
> 2. And/or when HEM comes with a conjunction or a preposition put infront of
> it as a prefix (as in Ec 3:18,11 or in Gn 41:56,12) ----------> then it is
> an independent 3mp pronoun.
> Now, I think that when <HEM> has a conjunction or a preposition attached
> infront of them we should better say that here HEM is an independent 3mp
> pronoun with a prefix rather than saying it is a suffix that has been
> attached to the preposition. Do you understand the difference?
>
> (JS) <HEM> never comes alone. According to BibleWorks the <HEM> (actually
> its <FHEM> according to WLC) is a 3mp suffix.
> Yes, I understand the difference, and the point yuo are making. So the
> question is, is this an error on WTS/BW part, or are they right?
>
>
>
>
>> (JS) Yes, I am aware that with <HOWN> and <NF)> the issue is that with one
>> the word is Aramaic, and the other is Hebrew. But I still mention it for
>> both the sake of completeness, and also to ask when you encounter those
>> words, beside just knowing "this part of Daniel is in Aramaic" what other
>> "red flags" are there. When just looking those words, is there any way to
>> detect that they are Aramaic or Hebrew, and not the other.
>>
> (PP) Unfortunately I do not know Aramaic. So I'm afraid I cannot really
> give an answer to this question. But when looking at a given verse (in
> Daniel or Ezra) if I see some words like DY (which is NOT Hebrew) or some
> words ending in aleph where you would expect a H (as in MLK) for MLKH,
> queen): then it is surely Aramaic and not Hebrew.
>
> Now, regarding your HOWN and your HIY.
> HOWN in Ezk 27:12.5 is an autonomous noun that means "wealth" and it has
> nothing to do with the suffix in Dan 2:44,1 (which is Aramaic).
> The same for HIY: in Ezk 2:10,12 it is an autonomous noun that means
> "wailing" and has nothing to do with the final HIY in Psa 116:12,5 (you
> chose here a very special -odd- word, John!), where it means "his" (a quite
> rare form!)
>
>
> (JS) Yep, I like to chose the odd ones. lol
> So how does one detect that in ek2:10,21 its a noun and that in ps116:12,5
> its a suffix - as these are the only two places in the Hebrew where this
> occurs? I guess the only way you would know is that in the first there's a
> conjunctive prefix, and the other is on a noun.
> And this is because a suffix is never connected to a lone conjunctive
> prefix.
>
>
>  Do you feel I'm right?
>
> Pere Porta
> Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain
>
>>
>>
>> Pere Porta wrote:
>>
>> Dear John,
>> Concerning your first question (Ec 3:18.11...).
>> The real base form is not HEM but H"M (Ex 5:7.10) (with tsere): base form.
>> But whenever this H"M becomes suffix, then the tsere turns to segol, HEM.
>> Look here: www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html and the four that follow it
>> and/or www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html and the following.
>> What, then, in Ec 3:18 (whre it is a base)?
>> When a base word with tsere is followed by maqaf (= hyphen), then the
>> tsere turns to segol: look at paragraph B, item 2 in
>> www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html.
>>
>> Remark: In HOWN and NF) you're mixing Hebrew and Aramaic: are you aware
>> thereof? To my sense this is not legitimate.
>> If you agree, I'm ready to give an answer to your second question.
>>
>> Pere Porta
>> Barcelona, Catalonia Spain
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are a few "word parts" that ares ambiguous (at least at first
>>> look) as too if the part is a base or a suffix.
>>> To define my terms here is an example:
>>> Word: <WI/YR"$W./KF>
>>> This is made up of three "word parts":
>>> Prefix: <WI>
>>> Base: <YR"$W.>
>>> Suffix <KF>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are 9 word parts that can go be either a base or a suffix, and I
>>> am trying to figure the logic behind when it is one or the other:
>>> <H"N>
>>> B: gn3:22,4 (Pi) [/in 86 other places/] / da2:5,9 (Pc_D) [/in 15 other
>>> places/]
>>> S: ek16:47,10 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]
>>>
>>> <H"N.FH>
>>> B: 2s4:6,1 (pi3fp) [/in 47 other places/] / gn15:16,4 (Pd) [/in 45 other
>>> places/]
>>> S: is34:16,7 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]
>>>
>>> <HEM>
>>> B: ec3:18,11 (pi3mp) [/only //occurrence/]
>>> S: gn2:25,2 (S3mp) [/in 1923 other places/] / ex30:12,7 (S3mpx) [/in 119
>>> other places/]
>>>
>>> <HEN>
>>> B: nu23:9,7 (Pi) [/in 11 other places/]
>>> S: gn19:33,3 (S3fp) [/in 113 other places/] / 2k19:26,1 (S3fpx) [/in 3
>>> other places/]
>>>
>>> <HF)>
>>> B: da3:25,3 (Pi) [/only occurrence/]
>>> S: ek41:15,11 (S3fs) [/only occurrence/]
>>>
>>> <HIY>
>>> B: ek2:10,12 (ncmsa) [/only //occurrence/]
>>> S: ps116:12,5 (S3ms) [/in 64 other places/] / da4:20,12 (S3msx) [/in 3
>>> other places/]
>>>
>>> <HOWN>
>>> B: ek27:12,5 (ncmsa) [/in 19 other places/] / ek27:27,1 (ncmsc) [/in 4
>>> other places/]
>>> S: da2:44,1 (S3mp) [/in 13 other places/]
>>>
>>> <NF)>
>>> B: gn12:11,11 (Pi) [/in 331 other places/] / ex12:9,4 (amsa) [/only
>>> //occurrence/]
>>> S: er4:12,10 (S1cp) [/in 2 other places/] / er5:11,3 (S1cpx) [/only
>>> //occurrence/]
>>>
>>> <NIY>
>>> B: ek27:32,3 (ncmsc) [/only //occurrence/]
>>> S: gn44:15,16 (S1cs) [/in 16 other places/] / gn20:11,11 (S1csx) [/in
>>> 213 other places/]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will start out with two questions:
>>>
>>> My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
>>> <HEM> as a Base:
>>> ec3:18,11    | $:/HEM                    | P  $E@Pr  /  B  H"M@pi3mp
>>>
>>> <HEM> as a Suffix:
>>> gn3:7,3      | $:N"Y/HEM                 | B  $:NAYIM@ucmdc  /  S
>>>  HM@S3mp
>>> gn6:13,13    | MI/P.:N"Y/HEM             | P  MIN@Pp_S  /  B
>>> P.FNEH@ncmpc  /  S  HM@S3mp
>>> gn8:19,11    | L:/MI$:P.:XO^T"Y/HEM      | P  L:@Pp_S  /  B
>>> MI$:P.FXFH@ncfpc  /  S  HM@S3mp
>>>
>>> ec3:18,11 is the only time the word part <HEM> is a base, as pi3mp -
>>> every other 2044 places its a suffix as S3mp.
>>> Can anyone explain why?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My second question is with the second one listed <H"N.FH>:
>>> <H"N.FH> as a Base:
>>> lv4:2,18    <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>>> je5:6,15   <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>>> ps34:21,5   <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>>> 2s4:6,1      | W:/H"N.FH                 | P  W:@Pc_S  /  B
>>>  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>>>
>>> <H"N.FH> as a Suffix:
>>> is34:16,7   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S   /    S  HNH@S3fp
>>> ek16:51,9   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    S  HNH@S3fp
>>> 1c21:10,16   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S   /    S  HNH@S3fp
>>>
>>> The reason I have 2s4:6,1 listed is because it is in the base position,
>>> but without an accent.
>>> So how does one determine which it is?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> B"H
>>> John Steven
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Pere Porta
>> "Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
>> (1Cor 15:32)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
> "Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
> (1Cor 15:32)
>
>


-- 
Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen"
(1Cor 15:32)