Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>]

Pere,
Thank you so much for responding. :)

I know that the lemma in ec3:18,11 is <H"M> (which was listed in my 
question).
My question is, when looking at the word, what are the "red flags" 
telling you that the <HEM> ending on this word is not a 3mp suffix based 
on the <HM> lemma, but rather an independent 3mp pronoun based on the 
<H"M> lemma?

Yes, I am aware that with <HOWN> and <NF)> the issue is that with one 
the word is Aramaic, and the other is Hebrew. But I still mention it for 
both the sake of completeness, and also to ask when you encounter those 
words, beside just knowing "this part of Daniel is in Aramaic" what 
other "red flags" are there. When just looking those words, is there any 
way to detect that they are Aramaic or Hebrew, and not the other.

Thanks in advance.

B"H
John Steven


Pere Porta wrote:
> Dear John,
> Concerning your first question (Ec 3:18.11...).
> The real base form is not HEM but H"M (Ex 5:7.10) (with tsere): base form.
> But whenever this H"M becomes suffix, then the tsere turns to segol, 
> HEM. Look here: www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html 
> <http://www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html> and the four that follow it 
> and/or www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html 
> <http://www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html> and the following.
> What, then, in Ec 3:18 (whre it is a base)?
> When a base word with tsere is followed by maqaf (= hyphen), then the 
> tsere turns to segol: look at paragraph B, item 2 in 
>  www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html <http://www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html>.
>  
> Remark: In HOWN and NF) you're mixing Hebrew and Aramaic: are you 
> aware thereof? To my sense this is not legitimate.
> If you agree, I'm ready to give an answer to your second question.
>  
> Pere Porta
> Barcelona, Catalonia Spain
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com 
> <mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com>> wrote:
>
>     There are a few "word parts" that ares ambiguous (at least at first
>     look) as too if the part is a base or a suffix.
>     To define my terms here is an example:
>     Word: <WI/YR"$W./KF>
>     This is made up of three "word parts":
>     Prefix: <WI>
>     Base: <YR"$W.>
>     Suffix <KF>
>
>
>     There are 9 word parts that can go be either a base or a suffix, and I
>     am trying to figure the logic behind when it is one or the other:
>     <H"N>
>     B: gn3:22,4 (Pi) [/in 86 other places/] / da2:5,9 (Pc_D) [/in 15 other
>     places/]
>     S: ek16:47,10 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]
>
>     <H"N.FH>
>     B: 2s4:6,1 (pi3fp) [/in 47 other places/] / gn15:16,4 (Pd) [/in 45
>     other
>     places/]
>     S: is34:16,7 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]
>
>     <HEM>
>     B: ec3:18,11 (pi3mp) [/only //occurrence/]
>     S: gn2:25,2 (S3mp) [/in 1923 other places/] / ex30:12,7 (S3mpx)
>     [/in 119
>     other places/]
>
>     <HEN>
>     B: nu23:9,7 (Pi) [/in 11 other places/]
>     S: gn19:33,3 (S3fp) [/in 113 other places/] / 2k19:26,1 (S3fpx) [/in 3
>     other places/]
>
>     <HF)>
>     B: da3:25,3 (Pi) [/only occurrence/]
>     S: ek41:15,11 (S3fs) [/only occurrence/]
>
>     <HIY>
>     B: ek2:10,12 (ncmsa) [/only //occurrence/]
>     S: ps116:12,5 (S3ms) [/in 64 other places/] / da4:20,12 (S3msx) [/in 3
>     other places/]
>
>     <HOWN>
>     B: ek27:12,5 (ncmsa) [/in 19 other places/] / ek27:27,1 (ncmsc) [/in 4
>     other places/]
>     S: da2:44,1 (S3mp) [/in 13 other places/]
>
>     <NF)>
>     B: gn12:11,11 (Pi) [/in 331 other places/] / ex12:9,4 (amsa) [/only
>     //occurrence/]
>     S: er4:12,10 (S1cp) [/in 2 other places/] / er5:11,3 (S1cpx) [/only
>     //occurrence/]
>
>     <NIY>
>     B: ek27:32,3 (ncmsc) [/only //occurrence/]
>     S: gn44:15,16 (S1cs) [/in 16 other places/] / gn20:11,11 (S1csx) [/in
>     213 other places/]
>
>
>
>     I will start out with two questions:
>
>     My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
>     <HEM> as a Base:
>     ec3:18,11    | $:/HEM                    | P  $E@Pr  /  B  H"M@pi3mp
>
>     <HEM> as a Suffix:
>     gn3:7,3      | $:N"Y/HEM                 | B  $:NAYIM@ucmdc  /  S
>      HM@S3mp
>     gn6:13,13    | MI/P.:N"Y/HEM             | P  MIN@Pp_S  /  B
>     P.FNEH@ncmpc  /  S  HM@S3mp
>     gn8:19,11    | L:/MI$:P.:XO^T"Y/HEM      | P  L:@Pp_S  /  B
>     MI$:P.FXFH@ncfpc  /  S  HM@S3mp
>
>     ec3:18,11 is the only time the word part <HEM> is a base, as pi3mp -
>     every other 2044 places its a suffix as S3mp.
>     Can anyone explain why?
>
>
>
>     My second question is with the second one listed <H"N.FH>:
>     <H"N.FH> as a Base:
>     lv4:2,18    <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>     je5:6,15   <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>     ps34:21,5   <M"/H"^N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    B  H"N.FH@pi3fp
>     2s4:6,1      | W:/H"N.FH                 | P  W:@Pc_S  /  B
>      H"N.FH@pi3fp
>
>     <H"N.FH> as a Suffix:
>     is34:16,7   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S   /    S  HNH@S3fp
>     ek16:51,9   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S    /    S  HNH@S3fp
>     1c21:10,16   <M"/H"N.FH>   |      P  MIN@Pp_S   /    S  HNH@S3fp
>
>     The reason I have 2s4:6,1 listed is because it is in the base
>     position,
>     but without an accent.
>     So how does one determine which it is?
>
>
>
>     B"H
>     John Steven
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>
>
>
> --
> Pere Porta
> "Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar 
> apothnéskomen" (1Cor 15:32)