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  • From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • To: Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?
  • Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:05:23 -0500

Yitzhak,

We need to distinguish between the abstract notion of schwa "NA", being defined now in the present day grammar books as a schwa "originating" in a vowel, as a mere grammatical device, and the E, or what not, override. If you prefer to E-E-E the Hebrew language you have apparently the right to do so.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:57 AM, Yitzhak Sapir wrote:

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Isaac Fried wrote:
Rivka,

I don't care what "others" say. I think I have encountered this
opinion somewhere but I can not recall now exactly where. Possibly in
some treatise of rabbinical provenance. You may try the carefully
written DIKDUKEI SHAY by Shmuel Yonatan Mandelbaum or DIKDUKEI
ELIYAHU by Xayim Hillel Krzepicqi, expounding on the grammar notes of
the GAON of Vilna.
Here are the names in Hebrew:

דקדוקי שי, שמואל יונתן מנדלבאום
דקדוקי אליהו, חיים הלל קרזעפיצקי

Luckily, Dikduk Eliyahu (one of two books that comprise Dikdukei Eliyahu,
the other being Dikduk Torah) is available online:

http://hebrewbooks.org/20568

Although edited by R' Haim Hillel Kerzepitzki, it is attributed to
the Gaon of Vilna. In this book, the words of R' Eliyahu (the Gaon
of Vilna) are on the top, and R' Haim's commentary is on the bottom
where it says "Lashon Haim". Now, if you look on p. 23 in the pdf
(page יג) of the book, you will see that it says:
"There are two kinds of schewa, a mobile schewa and a quiescent
schewa..."
p. 35 of the pdf begins the "Chapter of the Schewa" and lists the
conditions for determining a mobile schewa from a quiescent schewa.
p. 38 begins with the pronunciation rules of the schewa.
Now, back on p. 23 it does say that a mobile schewa is connected
with the following vowel and a quiescent schewa to the previous
vowel, and this is really the way the Masoretes viewed it, but this
doesn't mean a mobile schewa isn't pronounced or that there is no
difference between the two! If that's what you get from the Gaon's
words, you're misinterpreting him against what he intended.
In the Gaon's introduction he quotes various authorities, including
the Rambam: "The preciseness of the letters is to to be careful of
what is pronounced while reading so that he should not make
mobile a quiescent (schewa) letter and not make quiescent a
mobile (schewa) letter." (p.8-9 of the pdf)

The Gaon in his grammar follows the European tradition of the Kimhis
in trying to overlay the Tiberian tradition with the European tradition.
Now, very early books (12th century or so) might allow us to get some
window at the independent Ashkenazic tradition. However, by the time
of the Gaon of Vilna this was now systemized, and what we have is an
artificial guide to pronunciation that approximates the original
Ashkenazic tradition using the Tiberian vocalization.

Yitzhak Sapir
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