Biblical Hebrew Forum

[LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>]

Really.  I should think that "Torah" is the Jewish word for the Pentateuch.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 5:10 AM



Lloyd;
 
You wrote, "What is the Humash?"
 
This is the Hebrew word for what you refer to as the Pentateuch.
 
Yohanan bin-Dawidh



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:26:53 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com, b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
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Why do you think Jacob wrestled with an angel.  He wrestled with El.  
"Penuel" means he saw the face of El (and lived).

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com> wrote:

From: aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com>
Subject: ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:21 AM






I take the Jacob's wrestling match with the angel to actually be a 
conciliatory (?) fight between brothers Jacob and Esau over (royal) 
succession. They seemed to have settled in a draw, perhaps a deal involving 
property and kingship. Jacob had come offering riches to his brother, from 
whom he had taken his inheritance, as a peace ploy, or as proof that he had 
done a better job than Esau would have. Rubbing it in his nose perhaps? But 
Jacob's gifts and his deference to his cheated brother, seems to have made 
peace between the pair (read the two states each ruled). The title "angel" 
given to flater his brother, seems to have sealed the deal. Better to make 
peace than war.

Sly Jacob also fathered Joseph, son of his favorite wife. Joseph in an obtuse 
way ended up virtual ruler of Egypt. Who was that favorite wife? Egyptian 
royalty? Jacob may somehow planned the ruse that allowed Joseph's brother's 
to appear not so inferior to that favored son, Joseph. Perhaps those 
Midianites who "bought" Joseph from his brothers, were actually sent by their 
father to gather up the star son, known to be chosen to become the powerful 
Egyptian ruler.

Later on, when Moses (a royal Egyptian of the ethnic group) wrote the history 
of previous successions, he was explaining the political boundries and their 
relations to the royal families. It was not a straight line of succession 
because the lands were inherited in different ways. Sometimes only the oldest 
son (a common theme) inherited everything. Sometimes, as in Joseph's family, 
each son got a patch of land, which often became separate states. 

And sometimes, when there were many sons, as in David's case, the sons vied 
to be chosen top dog, or they tried to eliminate the competition. When 
Absalom, David's oldest, died, the sadness may have been that he was David's 
favorite, the chosen successor, who turned traitor, or who failed to unseat 
his powerful father. Or actually, David prefered his favored wife's son, 
Solomon, and just allowed the death of the competition (unlike the bout 
between the brothers Jacob and Esau.) Certainly this is speculation, but the 
dynastic succession given in the Old Testament is just a history of the 
victors. Like any other history, the Bible tells about the generals, the 
kings, the wars, the politics, and the royal intrigues.

Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

____________ _________ _________ __
From: andrej1234au <andrej1234au@ yahoo.com. au>
To: AncientBibleHistory @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 3:31:14 AM
Subject: ABH Re: Psalm 29

Hi Mary

> The angel that wrestled with Jacob said he'd put
> his name on Jacob so Jacob's name became IsRAEL..

Well, it doesn't really say that an angel sought to put his name on 
Jacob, merely that a man wrestled with him till daybreak and then 
named him Israel as he had prevailed. This is the Hebrew language: 
the root crh means 'to strive, to contend'.

It does interest me that none have seen this as the antipode of the 

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>From jaihare AT gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 04:51:00 2009
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Could you explain the term "hendiadys" and tell me why it would be
useful to translate a Hebrew expression (assuming you mean to
translate XSD W'MT with it) with something that has no meaning in
English?

Regards,
Jason Hare

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Olivier Randrianjaka
<rev_oli AT hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Fred Putnam,
>
> Thank you for your contribution, I am quite brand new in this and I am 
> wondering according to your explanation whether paired words like CHESED 
> WEMETH, which is sometimes should be translated as a "hendiadys" are also 
> classified as word pairs.
> Thanks for your helps.