Biblical Hebrew Forum

[LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>]

I am hosting a new forum called "Mainstream Biblical Scholarship."  Find it 
here.
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mainstreambiblicalscholarship/
 
Lloyd Barré
 
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 17:44:08 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
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Why is "as a beginning . . ." a bad translation?

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 12:36 AM


Lloyd,

I'm a little confused! If I didn't make myself clear before, I do not agree 
with your translation of BR)$T in Gen 1:1. Yes, I agree that B has a temporal 
sense here. But for that reason, "as a beginning, elohim created..." is a bad 
translation: "as" (in that context) is not a temporal preposition at all. On 
the other hand, "in the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, and is 
perfectly adequate. "In the beginning" is *not* a locative translation of B.

Stephen Shead
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/6 LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>





Thank you.  I am glad you took my meaning.  Do you agree?

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Shead <srshead+bh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: B in Gen 1:1 (was Hebrew considerations)
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org, l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:41 PM





Lloyd,

You wrote:
'Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as 
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would 
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."'

This is a miniscule point, but I think you have it the wrong way around: "in 
the beginning" is a temporal translation of B, not a locative one, whereas 
your translation doesn't render B either temporally or locatively.

Perhaps your confusion is with the word "in", whose most "basic" meaning 
(shall we say) is a locative one. But in line with the human propensity to 
interpret temporal experience by analogy with spatial experience, it also has 
a very common and normal temporal sense ("during the time of"). So "in the 
kitchen" uses the locative sense of "in", whereas "in the 16th century" uses 
the temporal sense.

In the context of Gen 1:1, the preposition "in" in the phrase "in the 
beginning" establishes a temporal relationship between "the beginning" and 
"God created...".

But your translation does not render B temporally at all. The temporal bit in 
your translation is the substantive "beginning" itself - R)$T - but the 
prepositional relationship "as" is not temporal translation of B at all; it 
means something like "by way of".

Stephen Shead
Centro de Estudios Pastorales
Santiago, Chile


2009/2/5 <b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>

From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>, b-Hebrew 
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew considerations
The interest in a consistent transliteration system for Hebrew leads me to 
think that this list, called "b-Hebrew," has an interest in the language.  
Perhaps I could offer some help on this topic with a brief discussion of the 
verbal system:
 
There are seven basic stems in pairs of active and passive:
 
Qal -Niphal
Piel-Paul
Hiphil-Hophal
Hithpael is middle voice
 
There is an active and passive participle
qatol and qatul
 
Also the infinitive construct.

The stems are determined by reading the infix patterns.
 
There is also the perfect and imperfect aspects.  This is not tense but 
archionsart or type of action.  The action is conceived as either complete or 
incomplete and may be applied to any tense.
 
There is also waw consecutive with the first verb in a sequence determines 
the aspect of all verbs connected by the conjuction waw.
 
The issue that might be open to discussion is whether or not we are right to 
see the qtl and yqtl forms as communication aspect rather that time of action.
 
Also, in Genesis 1, the first preposition, b, should be translated as 
temporal rather than locative as is so commonly done.  Thus, I would 
interpret, "as a beginning, elohim created . . , not "in the beginning . . ."
 
Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 







>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 17:46:25 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
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The 9th century.  The Mesha Stele

The Mesha Stele (popularized in the 19th century as the "Moabite Stone") is a 
black basalt stone, bearing an inscription by the 9th century BC Moabite King 
Mesha, discovered in 1868 at Dhiban (biblical "Dibon," capital of Moab) now 
in Jordan. The Stele is notable because it is thought to be the earliest 
known reference to the sacred Hebrew name of God - YHWH. It also notable as 
the most extensive inscription ever recovered that refers to ancient Israel, 
and French scholar André Lemaire reported that line 31 of the Stele bears the 
phrase "the house of David" (in Biblical Archaeology Review [May/June 1994], 
pp. 30-37).[1]
The inscription of 34 lines is written in the Moabite language. It was set up 
by Mesha, about 850 BC, as a record and memorial of his victories in his 
revolt against the Kingdom of Israel during the reign of king Ahaziah after 
the death of Israel's king Ahab.
The stone is 124 cm high and 71 cm wide and deep, and rounded at the top. It 
was discovered at the ancient Dibon now Dhiban, Jordan, in August 1868, by 
Rev. F. A. Klein, a German missionary in Jerusalem. "The Arabs of the 
neighborhood, dreading the loss of such a talisman, broke the stone into 
pieces; but a squeeze (or papier-mâché impression) had already been obtained 
by Charles Simon Clermont-Ganneau, and most of the fragments were recovered 
and pieced together by him".[8] The squeeze (which has never been published) 
and the reassembled stele (which has been published in many books and 
encyclopedias) are now in the Louvre Museum.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 11:59 PM

WHEN WAS THIS WRITTEN .


----- Original Message ----- From: "LM Barre"
<l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: "Ancient Bible History"
<AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>; "b-Hebrew"
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:46 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible


Another instance of Yahweh outside the Bible, as if that mattered, is the 
Mesha
inscription:

"And I took from there the ['r']ly of Yahweh and I dragged them
before Chemosh."

Lloyd Barré





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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 17:48:38 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Investigating the Shasu
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If anyone has any knowledge of the Shasu, I would be interested to have you 
post it at the following forum:
 
mainstreambiblicalscholarship AT yahoogroups.com
 
Lloyd Barré
 
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 17:54:05 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
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Husserl's phenomenology demonstrated that objectivity is possible through an 
phenomenological epoche or reduction.  Though it, one reaches the posture of 
the transcendental ego.  Calm down.

 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, dwashbur AT nyx.net <dwashbur AT nyx.net> wrote:

From: dwashbur AT nyx.net <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Many scholars accept the documentary sources
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 1:45 AM


On 6 Feb 2009 at 15:51, LM Barre wrote:

> I have no theology.  I am an objective scholar with no attachment to any
institution.

Forgive my bluntness, but this is one of the most arrogant statements I have
ever read on 
this board.  EVERYBODY has a theology, even if it's evident to everyone but
themselves.  
And there's no such thing as an "objective scholar" because
everybody brings baggage to 
the subject.  I'm not attached to any institution either, does that
automatically make me "an 
objective scholar"?  I can't help wondering why the moderators are
letting this stuff go on.

Dave Washburn
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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:06:33 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
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Words used in parallel members--matching subject, verbs, objects, adjectives 
etc.

A wise son maketh a glad father:
 but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.

"Wise son" is paired with "foolish son," "maketh glad" is paired with 
"heaviness" and "father" is paired with "mother."
 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
To: "'b-hebrew Forum'" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 1:16 AM

Can someone please explain: What is a word-pair? Thanks.

Sincerely,
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceInWilderness.info
And I saw: and behold, a black horse, and he that sat upon it having a
balance in his hand.  And I heard as a voice in the midst of the four living
creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of
barley for a day's wages: and do not injure the oil and the wine. (Rev
6:5b-6)
The chariot in which are the black horses goes forth into the land of the
north. (Zech 6:6a) 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Spinti
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:30 PM
> To: b-hebrew Forum
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> 
> 
> Not terribly recent, but have you looked at the 3 volumes of Ras Shamra
> Parallels from Biblical Institute Press?
> 
> HTH,
> James
> ________________________________
> James Spinti
> Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
> Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
> Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
> jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
> Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
> Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
> Fax: 574-269-6788
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Olivier Randrianjaka
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:53 AM
> To: george.athas AT moore.edu.au; b-hebrew Forum
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> 
> 
>  Hi all of you!!I am looking for the most recent works concerning Word
> pairs studies in Biblical as well as in ancient Semitic literatures, CAN
> ANYONE HELP?Thanks a lot. Olivier RandrianjakaPhD Student atMission School
> and TheologyStavanger, Norway
> _________________________________________________________________

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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:14:28 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
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Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 5:01 AM



Lloyd;
You wrote, "Actually, it's pronounced Yahweh.  We know this from the LXX."
We do not know this from the LXX.  I am glad that you are confident that such 
is the pronunciation, and if such is the pronunciation that you choose to 
use, I will not stop you from doing such, but please do not attempt to tell 
me how it is pronounced, especially using a Greek translation to do such.
As to the pronunciation of YHWH, as Yahweh, in my opinion, which could be 
wrong, this is a farce on part of the LXX, attempting to keep gentiles from 
actually knowing how to pronounce the name. The name of YHWH was given the 
vowel points to the Hebrew word Yahbeh, i.e. "Beautiful", as a mean to keep 
people from actually being able to pronounce the name.
No, this is not right.  The LXX translators had the oral tradition for the 
vocalization of the name.  I applaud the Jerusalem Bible and the New 
Jerusalem Bible for finally translating the Tetragrammaton as "Yahweh."
You wrote, "I do not think that Isaac existed."
This is fine. I do think he existed, since he is one of my ancestors, and 
according to my people's accepted history, he definitely existed.
You are not reading the Bible critically.
You wrote, "You take a pious approach, not an academic one."
How is that I take a pious approach? I see myself as taking a logical 
approach, rather than a pious approach. I merely stated a fact that such 
things do not disprove the Torah per se, this is neither pious, nor impious, 
just logic.
As I said, empericism does not allow "proof" but only probability of various 
degrees.
You wrote, "The Torah was not formed until Ezra the Scribe."
We will have to agree to disagree, because I think it was completely formed 
during the time of Yohoshu'a bin-Nun.
But you have no reasons for thinking so.  Just wishful thinking to support 
your Jewish nationalism.
Yohanan bin-Dawidh
 



>From yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 18:57:42 2009
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Shalom Lloyd;



You wrote, "No, this is not right.  The LXX translators had the oral
tradition for the vocalization of the name.  I applaud the Jerusalem Bible
and the New Jerusalem Bible for finally translating the Tetragrammaton as
'Yahweh'."



And could one not make the claim that the Masorates had the oral tradition
for the vocalization of the name also? But they surely did not write down
the name "Yahweh", did they? No, they wrote down something along the lines
of Yohowah/Yehowah/Yehovah, depending upon one's dialect. So, in essence, it
comes down to who was being more honest when recording the name, the LXX or
the Masoretic text? I am going to have to claim that Mosheh bin-'Asher was
more honest than the translators of the LXX, when scribing the text of the
Torah, especially since he was Yuhudhi Qara'i (Karaite Jew), and it would
evade me why he would scribe something that he knew to be wrong into the
copy of his Torah text. As to the Jerusalem Bible, and the New Jerusalem
Bible, I applaud them for their attempt to put the name into their text, but
not the choice that they chose, which I find to clearly be a mistake,
because as noted before, "Yahweh" was a clever attempt by translators to
keep gentiles from knowing the actual name of the deity of Avraham, by
giving them the word "Yahbeh" (Beautiful) in its stead, with only one letter
changed.



You wrote, "You are not reading the Bible critically."



I do not read it critically, because I do not find fault with it in the same
light that you do? The difference between the way that we read it is that I
read it for what it is, a cultural document of my people, and the only
criticism that I place upon it is linguistic criticism.



You wrote, "But you have no reasons for thinking so.  Just wishful thinking
to support your Jewish nationalism."



Actually, I do. I already made mention that I look at the Torah, Sefer
Yohoshu'a, and Sefer 'Iyyov as all being written by the same author, due to
linguistic similarities between the three texts.  This has nothing to do
with Jewish nationalism, but I will not get into my views of why not on this
forum, if you want to know why this has nothing to do with Jewish
nationalism, then write me personally off forum.



Yo*h*anan bin-Dawidh