Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Jim:
Du kannst auch kein Deutsch.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:

>  Karl:
>
>
>
> You wrote:  "To quote you, you claimed that MDBR means "rugged, hilly 
> pastureland".  Not one of the references you pointed to give that 
> definition. Where did you get it from?"
>
>
>
> Well, you've shown that you know how to look up a dictionary, but even here
the definitions that you found do not back up your claim that MDBR means
"rugged, hilly pastureland". So where did you get that definition from? Off
the top of your head?


> Perhaps my first post on this thread was misleading.  What I was saying was 
> that (i) the land north and northeast of the city of Hebron is MDBR, (ii) 
> some MDBR, but not all MDBR, is rugged, hilly pastureland, and (iii) the 
> MDBR north and east of the city of Hebron is rugged, hilly pastureland.  I 
> am perfectly well aware of the fact that not all MDBR is rugged, hilly 
> pastureland, and I did not mean to imply the contrary.
>
>
>
> The definition you gave didn't just imply, it clearly stated so.


> I don't know why people want to see so many definitions of MDBR, but here 
> are two more, this time from impeccable scholarly sources.
>
>
>
> You made a claim, we want to see if you can back it up.


> (1)  HALOT
>
>
>
> "pasture, steppe, wilderness, desert"
>
>
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> If you combine the notions of "pasture" and "steppe", you're basically 
> talking "rugged, hilly pastureland".
>
>
>
> "Steppe" means flat, unforested grassland. Pasture, even in the mountains
(I have seen them in Norway, Switzerland and the U.S. Southwest) tend to be
the more flat areas of the mountains, the steep areas are left for trees. So
where do you get "rugged, hilly pastureland"?


> (2)  Koehler und Baumgartner, "Hebraisches und Aramaisches Lexikon" (1995)
>
>
>
> "Trift, Steppe, Wuste"
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> Per the 2005 Oxford-Duden German Dictionary, "Trift" means:
>
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> "common (esp. mountain) pasturage"
>
>
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> "Trift" is an unusual German word, not all dictionaries I looked up had it,
but none, absolutely none, mentioned "mountain" as part of the definition.
"Steppe" is the same as English, while "Wüste" means desert.


> Once again, "mountain pasturage" looks a lot like "rugged, hilly 
> pastureland".
>
>
>
> ?????


> As far as I can tell, everyone agrees on the meaning of MDBR.  MDBR can 
> include, but is by no means limited to being, rugged, hilly pastureland.  
> MDBR cannot be cultivatable land, where wheat or barley is grown.  But MDBR 
> can be almost anything else.  There clearly is a tension in this Hebrew 
> word between the concept of "pastureland", which would basically be 
> positive, and the concept of "desert" or "wilderness", which would be 
> decidedly negative.  MDBR often means pastureland, but with a somewhat 
> negative connotation, indicating very modest land.
>
>
>
> For purposes of this thread, what counts is whether the land north and 
> northeast of the city of Hebron was MDBR.  It was.  That's what I'm saying. 
>  Thus the "MDBR of Ziph" could be the land north and northeast of the city 
> of Hebron, in terms of that land being classic MDBR land.
>
>
>
> Have you looked at any satellite pictures of the Hebron area? All around,
in all directions from the city, wherever there is flat land (almost all in
the valleys) you see fields. One of the larger areas stretches directly
northeast from the city.

You have yet to make the case that the cities that you mention are anywhere
else than south of Hebron, where history, archaeology and linguistics all
put them.


> Jim Stinehart
>
> Evanston, Illinois
>
>
Karl W. Randolph.