Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>]

Karl,

I can just repeat what I said before: There is no, and there can not  
be, a Hebrew root of the meaning "to be unknown". The hebrew root  
indicates a material state. The root (LM, as well, as its twin )LM,  
consist in my opinion of the single-consonat roots [substantives] AL- 
AM, 'tall-massive'. Thus both (LM and )LM essentially mean 'grow  
high, pile over'. The borrowed sense of (LM as 'hide, conceal' comes  
from the idea of 'go under cover' or 'burrow' done with the intent of  
vanishing from sight, as an animal would do covering itself with sand.
The price you pay for substituting the metaphorical value 'unknown'  
of (LM for its basic value 'grow up, pile over' is your  
interpretation of ALUMIM, 'youth', as "the period when girls are  
still sexually unknown to boys, and boys are still sexually unknown  
to girls", which I would not even remotely concede.
I am also in grave doubt on the translation of HA-QODRIYM MINI QARAX  
as "blackish by reason of the ice". Job 6:16-18 describes in my  
opinion the snow capped mountains of East Africa.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:15 PM, K Randolph wrote:

> Isaac:
>
> Did you read the whole chapter? Even just the "paragraph" from verses
> 14 through 21? The whole section is very poetic, using words in
> unusual ways for effect.
>
> As for YT(LM יתעלם in verse 16, is it even from the root (LM  
> עלם or is
> it from the otherwise unused root T(L תעל related to the noun T(LH
> תעלה ? Or taken in context, the first half of the verse "the  
> ones who
> are gloomy on account of the frost ...", (is the (LYMW עלימו  
> connected
> to the first part of the verse, or to the succeeding two words?) then
> the snow makes them flow down as in a ditch (connecting it to the
> previous verse in the same way as the first part of this verse).
>
> The bottom line, you can't take just one verse from a highly poetic
> use, where you are not even sure of the root being used, to argue
> against the clear meaning of a verb in its other uses.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> On 6/14/07, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
> > Karl,
> >
> > Well, if you think that (ALEYMO YITALEM $ELEG,
> >
> > עָלֵימוֹ יִתְעַלֶּם-שָׁלֶג
> >
> > is "on them (mountains?) snow will make itself unknown", then so  
> > be it. Just
> > notice the 'itself' in the statement to account for the fact that  
> > YITALEM is
> > in Hitpael form.
> >
> > On Jun 14, 2007, at 1:12 PM, K Randolph wrote:
> >
> > Dear Isaac:
> >
> > Though that is the meaning as translated into simple prose, I  
> > disagree in
> > that that is a highly poetic statement as stated by Job.
> >
> > Anyone who has seen how a thick layer of snow makes obscure that  
> > which is
> > below can understand how piles of snow can make unknown that which  
> > is below.
> > I remember one year while living in Bærum west of Oslo, that the  
> > first snow
> > of November was the last to melt in May, where the snow piled up  
> > to over a
> > meter deep making unknown everything below, even the earlier  
> > layers (it was
> > an unusually cold winter).
> >
> > What was the climate like in Job's day? Was he living in highlands  
> > where
> > multiple layers of snow could accumulate before melting in the  
> > spring? Was
> > the snow making unknown even the earlier layers of snow? A thick  
> > layer can
> > make unknown even wnere it started from.
> >
> > While studying prose I will allow for a single exception as a  
> > reason to
> > question the definitions given in other dictionaries. In poetry,  
> > Job being a
> > prototypical example of such, I try to translate his poetry into  
> > prose
> > before using it as an example to question the meaning as indicated  
> > by the
> > majority of uses. That snow makes even itself unknown fits the  
> > context,
> > therefore I see no reason to allow the term to have a different  
> > meaning than
> > what the majority of uses indicate what it has, which is "unknown".
> >
> > In conclusion, I see no reason to use this passage in Job as a  
> > basis to
> > question that (LM עלם means "to be unknown".
> >
> > Karl W. Randolph.
> >
> > On 6/13/07, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Karl,
> >
> > The key point is: Do you agree with me that  Job 6:16: (ALEYMO YIT 
> > (ALEM
> > $ELEG,
> >
> > עָלֵימוֹ יִתְעַלֶּם-שָׁלֶג
> >
> > is "upon them snow will pile itself up" or "upon them snow will  
> > accumulate
> > itself", or not?
> > Because if you do, then we know the basic meaning of the root (LM.
> >
> > Isaac Fried, Boston University
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