Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

  Isaac Fried  wrote, inter alia:

..."The statement QATALTI is essentially the mere combination

 QATAL-ATI,where ATI is an obsolete form of ANI, 'I', "...

      In Arabic the equivalent form for the first person is QATALTU

  -- now according to the same method, do we postulate in this case

 an obsolete form -ATU  for the first person?  The first person 

 in Arabic is: 'ANA' 

   Uri Hurwitz  

       
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>From hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net  Mon Apr 16 23:40:13 2007
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 1:19,21
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Steve Miller wrote:
> Thanks Isaac. Sorry I should have seen that Kranot was horns. I was thinking
> you were referring to some kind of pointing.
>
>  
>
> Your explanation makes sense except that I do not think you can make 2
> sequential actions out of LeHAXARID LeYADOT without a waw before LeYADOT.
>   

There might be ways of thinking like that if you thought that casting 
down meant destroying. The terrifying would precede the destruction. But 
Isaac offers the alternative of a comma, which is what the NRSV has. The 
NIV for style purposes inserts "and" between the infinitives. I think a 
bigger problem is that the Hiphil of XRD means "startle" or "terrify." 
Where is the evidence elsewhere for it meaning "rock loose." I can see 
how you might guess that from a Qal idea of "tremble," but where is the 
evidence? Also I think the horns represent powers, or people, rather 
than physical war machines. That is why an idea like "terrify" seems 
more suitable.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>  
>
> Sincerely,
>
> -Steve Miller
>
> Detroit
>
>  
>
>   _____  
>
> From: Isaac Fried [mailto:if AT math.bu.edu] 
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:20 PM
> To: Steve Miller
> Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 1:19,21
>
>  
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> I am sorry but I am afraid you entirely misunderstood what I said, possibly
> too tersely. KRANOT is just the plural of KEREN, 'horn'. 
>
>  
>
> This is what I think, in plain English, is being described in Zechariah
> 2:1-4: 
>
> 1. The prophet is seeing four battering rams---the ultimate war machine of
> his time---the epitome of mechanical evil. The machine consisted (methinks)
> of some sort of a wooden structure (covered, on wheels and with a platform
> for archers?) on which was mounted a horizontal heavy beam (this is how I
> would have constructed it had I been the chief military engineer of the
> Assyrian army), end fitted with a strong metal horn or beak, and used to
> slam into walls to rock them loose and crack them open. Namely, a kind of an
> ancient man-powered bulldozer or tank. The number 4 has possibly some
> symbolic value, but it eludes me now. 
>
> 2. Then the prophet asks (VA-OMAR) What are these? (namely the KRANOT), and
> the angel replies "those are the KRANOT that caused the dispersion of the
> Jews" (and are ready for a repeat).
>
> 3. Then God shows him (VA-YARENI) four workmen, expert in wood or metal
> cutting (XARASHIM). 
>
> 4. Then the prophet asks (VA-OMAR) what are these (XARASHIM) coming to do?
> (MAH ELEH BAIM LAASOT?). The prophet is confirmed in his suspicion on the
> nefarious purpose of the KRANOT, but he wants to be reassured on the hopeful
> intent of the workmen. 
>
> 5. Then God says (VA-YOMER): "Those are (indeed) the KRANOT that caused the
> dispersion of the Jews, (but) they (HA-XARASHIM) are here (VA-YABOU ELEH) to
> rock them (namely the KRANOT) loose (LeHAXARID), then (or comma) to cast
> (LeYADOT) them (namely the KRANOT) away" so as to render the tormentors of
> Israel impotent. 
>
>  
>
> Notice that I translate LeHAXARID as 'to rock loose', relying on the
> essential meaning of the root XRD, rather then as 'frighten', which is but a
> transferred meaning (see for instance Isaiah 10:29 XARDAH HA-RAMAH, GIBAT
> SHAUL NASAH.)
>
>  
>
> The root XRD is a member of the close-knit clan XRZ, XRT, XRS (HRS), XRC,
> XR$ (XARASHIM, MAXRESHAH, XORSHAH?), all of great affinity to GRD, ZRD, TRD,
> (CRD), PRD, XRK, XRQ, XRB, XRG, and more. 
>
>  
>
> Isaac Fried, Boston University 
>
>  
>
> On Apr 13, 2007, at 10:06 PM, Steve Miller wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Isaac,
>
> Can you explain what is a KRANOT? Can you tell me another place where it
>
> acts as an "and". Thanks.
>
>  
>
> -Steve Miller
>
> Detroit
>
> www.voiceInWilderness.info
>
>  
>
>  
>
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