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Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation

From: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>, "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:02:54 +0200

Yigal.

I brought the Genesis example to show how a misunderstanding about the basic inherent meaning of NPL (or other roots) can deceive us about the nature of NAFIL (or other names). The KJV translation ‘giant’ is fully acceptable to me, the same way I like פיל ‘elephant’ (ALEF, elevant?) as the name for the giant animal. In fact, I raise my hat in salute to the KJV translators for their keen sense of Hebrew. I really admire them for not falling into the mythological trap of the “fallen ones”.

I refuse to be drawn further a-field before the basics are settled. Suffice it to say that ענק (ANAK) ‘giant’ is in my opinion a variant of אנך (ANAX) ‘vertical’.

We must avoid sloppy and fuzzy thinking when looking for the basic meaning of a Hebrew root, and stay clear and focused. I repeat what I wrote to Namesake:

Now, 'to drop' and 'to fall' are TRANSLATIONS that seem befitting the Hebrew
root NPL, not an EXPLANATION as to what it is. Try explaining to me, or to
yourself, or to a student, what NPL (say the verb in its kal form NAFAL)
means, without using, supposedly equivalent English words, nor Hebrew
synonyms. In doing so, you need also to keep in mind that the Hebrew root
describes a fact---a constant material state---not an ongoing process in time. In other words, you need to separate language from imagination.

Thus, I am not listening to stories about “going up” and “coming down”. The Hebrew root is not a historical narrative, nor a tale of reconstructed events.

If you can explain NPL under these constrains, then we are on common ground. If not, then we part our ways.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] NPL/$PL (was: The radical letter L as marker of elevation)

Shalom Isaac,

The first part of my post was addressed to Liz, but I'd be glad to know what
you think the Nephilim were. Giants? Perhaps, but then what are Anakim?

I do not agree that Shephelah means "elevated". True, the Shephelah is
higher than the Moshor Haxoph, but the Israelites (or Judahites) were
looking down at the Shephelah from the hills. Look at Gen. 38:1 or Judges
14:1, or a dozen other places that describe people "going down" from the
hills to the Shephelah. So to them it was "the low country". The coastal
Canaanites or Philistines probably called it something like "Geva'ot".

Yigal Levin
----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] NPL/$PL (was: The radical letter L as marker of
elevation)

Yigal.
I do not see in the text the NeFILIM being “contrasted” with BeNEI
HaELOHIM.
It did not occur to me to even start and think that “$PL is some sort of
shaph'el of NPL”. There is no such thing as a shaphel form of a Biblical
root.
I did not say I lived in MISHOR HaXOF---we resided above it to the east.
I am glad that you agree that “Shephelah” is an elevated region.
I can understand your opposition to “unorthodox” methods and theories.
Go over all Biblical Hebrew roots (start with EL or AL) that contain the
letter L and you will see that I am right.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] NPL/$PL (was: The radical letter L as marker of
elevation)

Dear Unrelated Frieds,

Liz,

The Nephilim first appear in Gen. 1:4, where they are contrasted (I
think)
with "bene Ha'elohim". So I think that the Nephilim are earthy "mighty
ones". But who knows?

You seem to think that $PL is some sort of shaph'el of NPL. Interesting.

Isaac,

I'll continue to refrain from commenting on your very unorthodox theory
of
the Hebrew language, but despite what you were taught as a child, there
IS
no "shephelat haxoph" in Eretz Yisrael. The Shephelah is the low hilly
area
that separates the coastal plain from the central hill country ("hahar").
Josh. 15:33-44 makes this very clear. There is also a "Shephelah of
Israel"
(Josh. 11:16), perhaps the foothills of the western Galilee, but this is
uncertain. The coastal plain is "mishor haxoph".

Yigal Levin
----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
To: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation

Lisbeth.

First, we are dealing here with the science of language not with
Talmudic
legends about some "fallen ones" that came to us riding on shooting
stars.
I
am sure that the KJV translators who wrote ‘giants’ for ‘nfilim’ knew
very
well what they are doing. In present-day Hebrew ‘DOR HaNeFILIM’ is ‘the
founding fathers’ (and mothers, of course).

Now, 'to drop' and 'to fall' are TRANSLATIONS that seem befitting the
Hebrew
root NPL, not an EXPLANATION as to what it is. Try explaining to me, or
to
yourself, or to a student, what NPL (say the verb in its kal form NAFAL)
means, without using, supposedly equivalent English words, nor Hebrew
synonyms. In doing so, you need also to keep in mind that the Hebrew
root
describes a constant material state, not a process in time. In other
words,
you need to separate language from imagination.

To keep matters simple, I wish to refrain now from commenting on the
subtler
root $PL. Suffice it to say that I grew up in Israel in SHFELAT HaXOF
and
I
know what it is.

Think also about the kindred root נבל (NBL), and the fact that the name
of
the musical instrument NEVEL, harp, is derived from it. Moreover, I
think
that the name Nabal of Samuel 25:3 means ‘a nobleman’.

As far as I know we have no immediate relatives here in America. Anyway,
whenever I see your name my heart leaps for a second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation

Dear Isaac,
(Are you related to my husband?)

They're called Fallen Ones, because they fell from Heaven (I assume).
The root still means to fall in the kal, in the hiphil it is to drop,
to
cause something to fall.
The fallen ones happened to be giants.
The Shephelah, the foothills of the Judean highlands, are the lowlands,
literally, from the same root as npl.
Liz Fried

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On
Behalf Of Isaac Fried
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 12:27 AM
To: Yitzhak Sapir
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation

Let us take the root נפל (NPL). In Genesis 6:4 we read about the נפלים
(NeFILIM), which the KJV translates as ‘giants’, namely of elevated
stature.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Richard Steiner on Sin and Shin

> On 1/11/07, Isaac Fried wrote:
>> Every Hebrew root that contains the letter L materially refers to
>> an
>> elevated state.
>
> Good examples that illustrate the above are the roots $PL "low",
> NPL
> "fall".
>
> Yitzhak Sapir
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [b-hebrew] The radical letter L as marker of elevation , (continued)