Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] We and us

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] We and us
  • Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:49:38 -0500

Hi Vadim,

Interesting. Does "May *he* (the king) hear his slave" also exist?

I am sure you are right about the avoidance issue (which is btw, politeness). We're not really searching for politeness at this point in our discussion.

David has informed us that the 'ani/'anoki contrast is not best understood as a politeness thing. His evidence is that such a contrast needs, if cross-linguistic types have anything to say about it, 3rd and 2nd person contrasts as a priority to the 1st person. I have just been wandering around in the BH corpus looking for 2nd and/or 3rd person politeness contrasts.

Shalom,
Bryan

Vadim Cherny wrote:
That usage is common in old Russian, something like, Hear, o king, his
slave!
It's not really politeness in the modrn sense, but close to superstitious
fear of directly addressing a superior; thus 3rd person instead of the 2nd.
Similarly, in many cultures a slave or vassal was not supposed to look
directly at king or master.

Vadim Cherny

Begging your patience.

Take 1 Sam 26:19 for an example:

yishma` na' 'adoni hammelek 'et dibrey `abdo

We have a 3rd person subject prefix on the verb. Surely this is a
transformation from the second person notion "you" (2nd person) as in
"you listen."

We have a third person pronominal suffix on `abdo. Surely this is a
transformation from the first person possessive notion, "The words are
mine."

The question is not whether the notions surface as noun clauses or
independent pronouns. The question is whether the transformation from a
notion in one person to a surface structure in another person is driven
by politeness.

Am I thinking correctly?

If yes, why wouldn't the surface structure qualify as grammaticalization
since it requires third person reference?

Shalom,
Bryan

David Kummerow wrote:
Dear Bryan,

See me earlier response to Peter. I take it that Peter's point does not
invalidate my questioning of the supposed link between politeness and
the two BH first-person independent pronouns. That English "your humble
servant" HASN'T grammaticalised into a first-person pronoun could even
be taken in support of my claims. Why hasn't it grammaticalised? The
answer from typological research is that English would need polite
second- and third-person pronouns before such a grammaticalisation could
occur (again, see Helmbrecht's work).

This is the same with 'adoni hammelek substituting for 'attah. The
phrase is hardly a polite pronoun. Sure, the phrase functions to express
politeness, but I don't think it is a grammaticalised polite pronoun; it
is still a noun phrase.

Regards,
David Kummerow.


B-Haverim,

Peter makes a good point. In addition, we may take note of third
person
being substituted for second in BH (and English?), as in 'adoni
hammelek
substituting for 'attah.

Shalom,
Bryan

Peter Kirk wrote:

/
/>/ Later, David wrote:
/>>/ ... Helmbrecht demonstrates that the
/>>/ grammaticalisation of politeness distinctions in the first-person
is
/>>/ from a number of options: nouns denoting "servant" and "slave" etc
/>>/ (Japanese, Thai, Burmese, Vietnamese, Turkish); ...
/>/
/>/ If the use of nouns denoting "servant" and "slave" for the first
person
/>/ counts here, then certain registers of English must be considered
an
/>/ exception to Helmbrecht's rule and so potentially similar to
Hebrew. For
/>/ in English there is no politeness distinction in second person
pronouns,
/>/ but in some registers "your humble servant" is used consistently as
a
/>/ politeness related substitute for "I". And in fact precisely the
same
/>/ happens in the Turkic language into which I am working on Bible
/>/ translation; in the register the translators have chosen to use,
second
/>/ person polite forms are not used (as not appropriate in a
historical
/>/ context, for they are known to be a recent innovation), but a form
"your
/>/ slave" similar to the now obsolete Turkish usage is sometimes used
in
/>/ this translation, especially where the Hebrew offers some support.
But
/>/ then that implies that Hebrew is an exception to Helmbrecht's rule
for
/>/ sometimes using `ABDEKA as a first person form, quite apart from
'ANI
/>/ and 'ANOKI.
/>/
/
--
B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13026
(W): 315.437.6744
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

--
B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13026
(W): 315.437.6744




--
B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13026
(W): 315.437.6744




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page