Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>]

Bryan,

but what is wrong with the common idea that the difference resembles that
between phrases with verb and with dash? Perhaps the noun phrase implies
deictic center shift, the author's immersion in the events which he relates
as current.

Russian, again, provides perfect analogy to the Hebrew. In Russian, you can
say both,

the entire earth - desert
the entire earth was desert

Vadim Cherny


> Harold and other B-Haverim,
>
> I own all the "major published translations of the Bible" (to quote
> Harold) and found it unsatisfying.  That's why I have spent some
> considerable time and expense trying to learn Hebrew.
>
> So without recourse to English translations, can anyone tell me the
> difference between the meaning or function of a noun sentence and a
> sentence using qatal of HYH when either appears in narration?
>
> Example:  Is there any difference when a narrator says
>
> a.  veha'arets tohu vabohu
>
> and
>
> b.  veha'arets hayetah tohu vabohu
>
> ?????
>
> I am assuming there should be a difference.
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>
>
> Harold Holmyard wrote:
> > B. M. Rocine wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I think we do best to assume a cummunicative partnership or cooperation
> >>between a writer/speaker and his audience.  Such a partnership implies
> >>different functions for different forms.
> >>
> >>For instance, I think we should distinguish in Hebrew narration between
> >>scene-setting that is done with a noun sentence (a.k.a. verbless clause)
> >>and that which is done with a sentence using the qatal of HYH.  To be
> >>specific, the noun sentence may describe a state as it existed at the
> >>time the narrator is focused on.  In contrast, the sentence using qatal
> >>of HYH may describe the "coming into a state."
> >>
> >>Put another way, the best English translation of the noun sentence used
> >>in the narration of the past utilizes *was* or *were*.  E.g. (Gen 1:2)
> >>
> >>(noun sentence)vexoshekh `al peney tahom
> >>"and darkness *was* upon the surface of [the] deep."
> >>
> >>The best English translation of qatal of HYH in narration of the past
> >>utilizes *had become*.  E.g. Gen 1:2
> >>
> >>(qatal of HYH) veha'erets hayetah tohu vabohu
> >>"And the earth had become..."
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > HH: Most scholars apparently do not think that is the best rendering,
> > since major published translations of the Bible do not have "had
> > become." It is incongruous with the context which describes things "at
> > the beginning." There is no former state to refer to.
> >
> >
> >>Another example of a qatal of HYH in narration is in Gen 3:1
> >>
> >>(qatal of HYH) vehanaxash hayah `arum mikkol xayat hassadeh
> >>"And the serpent *had become* more subtil than any animal of the field."
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > HH: They don't have this either. This might not be a problematical
> > comment, as it could describe the original endowment of the serpent. It
> > initially could have been a somewhat different creature and was altered
> > after this incident to crawl on its belly.
> >
> >
> >>In other words, the Lord did not create this animal in such a
> >>problematic condition.  The animal had become so over time.
> >>
> >>Gen 4:21 uses both forms:
> >>
> >>(noun sentence)veshem 'axiyv jubal
> >>"And his brother's name *was* Jubal"
> >>
> >>(qatal of HYH)hu' hayah abi kol tophes kinor ve`ugab
> >>"And he *became* the father of all players of lyre and harp."
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > HH: "Was" also works fine here:
> >
> > NIV Gen. 4:21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who
> > play the harp and flute.
> >
> > NRSV: Gen. 4:21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the ancestor of all
> > those who play the lyre and pipe.
> >
> > KJV: Gen. 4:21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of
> > all such as handle the harp and organ.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Harold Holmyard
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> >
>
> -- 
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13026
> (W): 315.437.6744
>
>