Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

So, in your opinion where exactly was the man moving to and from? From a 
state of 
death to a state of life?

Anyway, while into on its own has the basic meaning of entering it is clear 
that in 
the case of the phrasal verb 'to turn into' this is not the case. To turn 
into means 
to become.

May I offer you a spot of advice Vadim as you are quickly losing the respect 
of a great 
many members of this list? I appreciate your enthusiasm and your lively input 
to 
discussions and it's good to have mother speakers from many nationalities 
that can 
bring a different slant to the discussions. It is true that English speakers 
can fall 
into the trap of limiting their ideas of range of expression to their own 
language and 
it is for this reason than new English speaking students of biblical hebrew 
find it 
very hard to understand the concept of a tenseless language. 
The advice I would like to offer you is this. Sometimes it is better to yield 
even when 
you know you are right. If you never yield you come across as opinionated and 
unreasonable.
Whereas if you yield as often as you see the opportunity you show your 
objectiveness 
and reasonableness and these qualities will bring you much more respect from 
your peers 
on this list and in the future we will find it easier to consider that you 
have 
something valuable to say.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 7:38 AM
To: Read, James C
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] prepositions and grammar
 
RE: [b-hebrew] prepositions and grammar> How would you feel about the 
following translation:?

> 'and the man turned into a living creature.'

> This translation retains both the preposition and the sense of the phrase.

"Into" is more the preposition b, not l.
l means direction, moving somewhere, while b - actually entering it. Also, 
"into" describes a state, while l is spatial marker.


> P.S. I notice you didn't answer my question but merely adroitly sidestepped 
> it

How would you translate 'has visto a Maria?'?

a)Have you seen Maria?
b)Have you seen to Maria?

Spanish "a" is a live object marker, irrelevant, as I wrote you earlier, to 
direct or indirect, or to a case. It need not be translated with "to."

Vadim Cherny

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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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        "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
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Sorry for the confusion I probably caused here. I was thinking of another 
document written in hebrew but not the Massorah. What do they call the
oral torah? I can't remember. Does that begin with 'm' as well?

Anyway, while I agree that the massoretic pointing represents what was 
traditionally held to be the original pronunciation, it it highly unlikely 
that this is the case. In particular, I would be wary of the vowels. Vowels 
have a tendency not only to change rapidly in the course of time but also to 
have vast differences between contemporary accents. Compare scottish 'Whet y' 
deyin'?' with Thames valley 'What are you doing?'.Particularly suspect are 
the 
schewas. In English, schewa is the most common vocalised vowel sound and yet 
it has no unique grapheme. It is represented by every other vowel sound in 
the English alphabet 'a','e','i','o','u' and the latin words from which these 
words originate definitely had no schewa but contained the pure vowels 
a,e,i,o,u
respectively. Words which are often used have been shortened to contain a 
vocal schewa and eventually to have no sound at all.

e.g. I am => I:m => I'm

Similarly I believe it possible that hebrew has undergone a similar process

e.g. ehayeh => eh:yeh => ehyeh


Your observation that different roots in the cognates gives strong evidence 
that 
the sin/shin were already considered separate phonemes before the split. The 
only 
question that remains is when this split actually happened. For those who 
hold 
the account of Babel to be true it is reasonable to assume that hebrew and 
it's 
cognates came from one common language which belonged to one of the groups 
that 
had had their language confused. For those who hold only to linguistic 
methods 
it is reasonable to make the same assumption (that the cognates all came from 
the same common root) but the question of when? is rather more open.

In order to definitively prove Karl's theory wrong we would need to 
demonstrate 
that these cognates with differentiated sin/shin already existed before the 
time 
of the writing of the torah. To be completely thorough we need to make sure 
we 
use the oldest possible date of the torah and recent arguments have shown 
that 
the oldest proposed date for the exodus is the early 16th century.

Can you unequivocally demonstrate that these cognates were in circulation 
before 
the early 16th century?

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yitzhak Sapir
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 4:49 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
 
On 10/7/05, Read, James C wrote:
> Erm, I haven't personally read the massorah but from all those that
> have read it or portions of it I gather that the hebrew it contains
> is more than blatantly evidently much more modern in style and word
> usage.

The Massorah proper does not contain much Hebrew.  It refers to the
additional "tradition" related to transmitting the text.  This includes the
vocalization and cantillation marks, which are obviously not any more
modern Hebrew in style or word usage than the unpointed text itself,
because it is the exact same text.  It also includes various notes on
the text relating to the number of times particular words are used in
the Bible in the same or similar spelling, but these notes are so terse
there is hardly any words used in them at all except for Biblical quotes.

> On the matter of sin/shin I think Karl has good reason to believe these 
> represented
> one sound.

The reason to think they are different is:
1) They commonly represent different roots.  Consider the earlier examples
(which Karl ignored):  $kr - beer/alcohol vs. &kr - reward, or $kl - to lose a
son vs. &kl - understanding (very vague translations).
2) They are mirrored in Arabic also in different roots.
3) The Massorah accurately corresponds $ and & differently with the different
meanings and with the cognate in Arabic.
All of the above suggests that the Massorah accurately transmits Shin and Sin
which were originally differentiated.  While eventually the Sin merged
with Samekh,
the spelling preserved the original different roots.  If you read
Hebrew unpointed you
would probably conclude that the two meanings were associated with each root
but you'd not understand that this is consistent.  Besides, if someone
reads a Sin
as a Shin phoneme in unpointed text, he would be considered illiterate in both
synagogue and public.

Also, while I can sympathize with you regarding the love letters
Stephen has been
sending you, there is no need to resend them to the list.  Just set it
up so mails
from Stephen auto-forward to spam.  If you must resend them somewhere, may
I suggest you resend them to Yahoo:

http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/abuse/cgi_abuse

Best,
Yitzhak Sapir
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>From jonhjorleifur AT gmail.com  Fri Oct  7 08:59:11 2005
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Hello everyone!
 My name is Jón Hjörleifur Stefánsson, and I am interested in studying
Hebrew. I thought this might be the right place to pose a question: I am
looking for Mikra'ot Gedelot / 2nd Rabbinic Bible 1524-5 ed. by Ben Chayyim.
The closest I have gotten is Meir Leteris. I found the following on the site
of the Foreign Ministry of Israel:
 The editions of the Bible best known to most Israelis are usually those
published in Hebrew, by the English missionary bible societies, which
flourished in the 19th century. These editions are not at all bad. The first
ones were edited by the Jewish scholar, Meir Leteris (1800-1871), and were
first published in London in 1852.

The work was continued for the English Bible Society by David Christian
Ginsburg, a Jewish convert to Christianity, who settled in England and whose
life's work was the editing of the Hebrew Bible according to the Mesorah (a
series of rules for preserving the correct version of the script). The
Bibles were often published as dual-language editions, with each page in
Hebrew facing a page in the language of the country to which the book was
intended.

These editions were published in more copies than any other book in the
history of Hebrew publishing, and perhaps in the history of publishing in
general. They were of high quality, in a handy format which was easy to
read, on thin, strong paper, durable but lightweight, which came to be
called "Bible paper," and were bound in strong, handsome bindings.
So the line goes: Ben Chayyim - Leteris - Ginsburg. So if I would buy, say
1920 or sth edition of Leteris I would be getting the closest copy of the
1524-5 text? Since I don't even understand Hebrew (yet) it doesn't matter if
it's not completely the same. I would just be happy knowing that I have
something close.
 Thank you very much,
Jón Hjörleifur Stefánsson.