Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen [mailto:stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 3:15 AM
To: Read, James C
Subject: RE:  Ayin and Ghayin
 
REPENT YE british slave to ha-satan
 
REPENT ye stiff necked and uncircumsized in heart and in ears, ye do always 
resiste the Holy Ghost, as your daddies, kings, queens, princes, and 
princess's, dukes, etc.. did in britian, so do you..
 
REPENT
 
stephen the humble servant of Yahweh

Yes Stephen, you are absolutely right. But please. Now that I have repented, 
what
should I actually do?

"Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk> wrote:


Yes Stephen, thank you for that. I have and am repenting for my wicked
British ways. Do you have any practical advice to offer me? Which could
aid me in becoming more, you know? More like you? And, you know? less like
me?

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen [mailto:stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 3:00 AM
To: Read, James C
Subject:  Ayin and Ghayin

james,

have you repented yet?

Yahweh is crying out against you, to repent from your wicked british ways.

you are not upity to Him, you are downity.

humble thyself oh wicked child of the devil..

and repent...and be His child... please, before it is to late...

stephen Yahweh's humble messenger

"Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk> wrote:

Come on George! Don't you think that's a bit harsh? This is a place for
producing linguistic evidence against the theories we don't support but
not a place for making personal attacks against people.

Anyway, I think you may have misrepresented Karl here. He is not trying
to impress with his ability to read unpointed hebrew. No-one can really
say they know hebrew if they are not reading unpointed text. I think Karl
is rather highlighting that the act of reading the hebrew unpointed lends
to a view that sin/shin originally represented one phoneme. Nothing more
and nothing less.

Personally, Iagree that reading unpointed text has large benfits. Because
the reader is forced to use his first instincts and make better use of the
context. I believe this is a fundamental step which makes the difference
between making hebrew a part of you and not just an academic exercise
(Yitzhak. Did you notice the improved spelling?).

For this reason, and others, my translation machine does not use the
pointed hebrew text, which could cause errors in the statistical calculations
it makes.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of George F Somsel
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 2:15 AM
To: kwrandolph AT email.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:41:29 -0500 "Karl Randolph"
writes:
> Yitzhak:
>
> You're just like Vadim, impossible!

+++++++++++++

Karl,

If anyone is like Vadim, it is YOU.

+++++++++++++

> When I read documents like the Gezar Calendar and the
> Siloam Inscription, I find writing entirely consistent with
> examples found in pre-Exile Tanakh. Give me a clear
> enough image and I have no trouble reading the text.
> Have you ever read Tanakh from cover to cover?
>
> What does this tradition have to do with an analysis of the
> unpointed Hebrew text? Huh??
>
> Have you ever *read* the unpointed text cover to cover?

++++++++++++
Karl,

I doubt seriously that you have read the TANAK from cover to cover. You
had to admit that you didn't know what to do with a passage from Job, and
there have been other other instances in which you seemed very much at a
loss. If I were you I would drop this bit about reading the Hebrew text
from cover to cover (and especially the point about reading the unpointed
text) since I find it totally unimpressive though I know you are
attempting to impress everyone with your prowess at Hebrew. It only
makes you a laughing-stock.
++++++++++++

> In closing, I have come to the conclusion that you don't
> know Biblical Hebrew. Oh, you may have taken a class or
> two in it, learning the paradigms presented in grammar
> textbooks, but that is a far cry from reading the text cover
> to cover. You have not analyzed even a simple, small
> book like Ruth using an unpointed text, let alone the
> whole Tanakh. All you do is parrot the beliefs of others. If
> you were handed a document in archaic Hebrew script,
> could you read it? I can. Apparently you love to argue just
> to argue, well go on without me.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.

++++++++++++

You would do well to take "a class or two" learning Hebrew. Don't try to
impress me with your supposed prowess at reading the unpointed text from
cover to cover. You're a phoney.

++++++++++++

george
gfsomsel
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Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 03:49:59 +0000
From: Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
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On 10/7/05, Read, James C wrote:
> Erm, I haven't personally read the massorah but from all those that
> have read it or portions of it I gather that the hebrew it contains
> is more than blatantly evidently much more modern in style and word
> usage.

The Massorah proper does not contain much Hebrew.  It refers to the
additional "tradition" related to transmitting the text.  This includes the
vocalization and cantillation marks, which are obviously not any more
modern Hebrew in style or word usage than the unpointed text itself,
because it is the exact same text.  It also includes various notes on
the text relating to the number of times particular words are used in
the Bible in the same or similar spelling, but these notes are so terse
there is hardly any words used in them at all except for Biblical quotes.

> On the matter of sin/shin I think Karl has good reason to believe these 
> represented
> one sound.

The reason to think they are different is:
1) They commonly represent different roots.  Consider the earlier examples
(which Karl ignored):  $kr - beer/alcohol vs. &kr - reward, or $kl - to lose a
son vs. &kl - understanding (very vague translations).
2) They are mirrored in Arabic also in different roots.
3) The Massorah accurately corresponds $ and & differently with the different
meanings and with the cognate in Arabic.
All of the above suggests that the Massorah accurately transmits Shin and Sin
which were originally differentiated.  While eventually the Sin merged
with Samekh,
the spelling preserved the original different roots.  If you read
Hebrew unpointed you
would probably conclude that the two meanings were associated with each root
but you'd not understand that this is consistent.  Besides, if someone
reads a Sin
as a Shin phoneme in unpointed text, he would be considered illiterate in both
synagogue and public.

Also, while I can sympathize with you regarding the love letters
Stephen has been
sending you, there is no need to resend them to the list.  Just set it
up so mails
from Stephen auto-forward to spam.  If you must resend them somewhere, may
I suggest you resend them to Yahoo:

http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/abuse/cgi_abuse

Best,
Yitzhak Sapir