Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Compare Rev 11:15-19

It would seem that the physical Ark carried the old covenent and according to 
first century Christian theology, was a mere foreshadow of the new covenent 
sealed by the blood of the lamb (the passover sacrifice).


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Søren Holst
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 12:35 PM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Stone slab replacing the Ark of the Covenant
 
Venturing outside the HB canon, the first thing we come across is 2. 
Maccabees stating that Jeremiah hid the ark in a cave east of the Jordan 
before the Babylonians destroyed the temple, and that Jeremiah said "the 
place will remain unknown until God brings his people together again and lets 
righteousness reign" (2 Macc 2,7-8 in my own feeble reproduction of a Danish 
translation). Whether this prophecy in the eyes of 2 Macc would most likely 
refer to the return from the exile in the late 6th century BCE or to an 
escathological situation, I'm not sure.

I *think* (please correct me) there's a rabbinic tradition that the ark is 
hidden somewhere under the temple mound and that therefore the shekinah still 
dwells at the same place. But is this hiding associated with the destruction 
of the first or second temple?

kol tuv
Soren

> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra:  b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org 
> [SMTP:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] på vegne af Alexander Oldernes
> Sendt:        2. august 2005 12:57
> Til:  b-hebrew
> Emne: [b-hebrew]  Stone slab replacing the Ark of the Covenant
> 
> Maybe your expertise can help me with this question...
> 
> I have read somewhere that when the curtain covering the entrance to the 
> Most Holy was torn in two, in the first century CE, the Most Holy was 
> exposed containing no Ark of the Covenant. In place of the Ark was a stone 
> slab upon which the high priest sprinkled the blood on the Day of Atonement.
> 
> I know the last mention of the Ark of the Covenant is in 2. Chronicles 
> 35:5, 
> saying:
> He said to the Levites, who instructed all Israel and who had been 
> consecrated to YHWH: "Put the sacred ark in the temple that Solomon son of 
> David king of Israel built. It is not to be carried about on your 
> shoulders."
> 
> This happened around 642 (?) BCE.
> 
> And now the question...
> Do we know that the Ark of the Covenant was replaced by a stone slab?
> 
> If so...
> Who writes about it?
> Do we know when this was done?
> Do we know what the stone slab looked like?
> 
> ----
> 
> Alexander Oldernes
> 
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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Could This Be Nimrod
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Sorry, could you expand on the number thing? I didn't really follow what 
you are trying to say.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Patrick J. Emsweller
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 1:13 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Could This Be Nimrod
 
Yes, other numbers that draw attention are 3, 30, 60 and 72 to identify a
few.  In the text it is actually 61 for 60 and 73 for 72.

 

-patrick

 

  _____  

From: Read, James C [mailto:K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:16 AM
To: Patrick J. Emsweller
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Could This Be Nimrod

 

 

I have read that the chinese character for flood is composed of other
charcters which literally mean '8 people in a boat'.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Patrick J. Emsweller
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 12:12 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Could This Be Nimrod

 
Besides "Yao" in my previous link, I think one can see a great many
commonalities with regards to the Chinese scriptures and other cultures
scriptures/histories.  IMHO

-patrick

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Read, James C
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:15 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Could This Be Nimrod


The following link provides a history of the Chinese:

http://www.threekingdoms.com/history.htm#2_3_1

It states that:

 All accounts, however, agree that the basin of the Yellow River was the
cradle of the Chinese culture, and that their ancestors were a nomadic
people who, some five or six thousand years ago, migrated from the
north-western part of Asia and finally settled in the northern-central part
of what is now China.

END QUOTE

This could well have been a migrating family descendent of one of Noah's
three children.

It goes on to speak of a legend:

2. Mythological Era
(BC 5000-2200)

2.1. Age of the Three Divine Rulers

Given the first rank among the chieftains is Fuxi, or "Conqueror of
Animals." He taught his subjects how to catch animals and fish with nets and
to rear domestic animals for food. He is also the originator of the writing
system which, with their improvements and modifications of ages, has been
handed down to us in the form of the modern Chinese characters.

END QUOTE

Could this be Nimrod? Nimrod the great hunter in opposition to Yahoweh? The
strokes of Chinese writings seem
to have a lot in common with the strokes we see in cuneiform tablets and
this could explain why so many Japanese words seem to come from semitic
roots.


Any thoughts?

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The rules for hebrew syllable structure, to the best of my knowledge, are 
quite
set in stone. We have

CV
CVC

but I have never seen

VVV

Do you have any other example of it?
Plus do you think you could go through the Egyptian/Clementine evidence again 
but 
this time much slower and give links to the passages so that readers can 
verify your
proofs? It would make reading and accepting your arguments much easier.

The IW (iota-omega) prefix we see in the LXX is quite clearly a 
transliteration of 
the shortened divine name YHW with pronuniciation Y:HoW. The schewa was a 
near non 
existant sound for the Greeks and I know that from experience, while teaching 
English 
to the Italians for three years, when I asked them to transliterate what they 
heard me 
say they always ommitted the schewa because they heard nothing, having a 
language with 
only pure vowels.Thus the Greeks transliterated IW because they heard the 
yodh and that 
sounded similar to an iota, they did not hear the schewa and thus did not 
attempt to 
transliterate it, they heard the 'oW' which just sounded to them like a long 
vowel with 
no consanant (their language had no 'w' sound, like Spanish, Italian and 
Russian of today).
While, I cannot conclusively prove my above assertions, they seem to be in 
great agreement
with the pointing of the Masoretes.
How do you account for the Masoretic pointing.

Another thing you should maybe take on board is that nobody said no to 
pronounce a verb,
they only abolished the use of the verb as a name. It's more modern 
etymological child verb 
HYH is among the most common verbs of the bible. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 1:41 PM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation> Ok!Now I'm finally starting to understand 
you. You think IAO represents the suffixes I.You.He
which we find at the end of verbs.

nouns, too

> Your reason for this is that you feel that the IAO transliteration is more 
> valid than the others, although, I'm still not sure why.

Because it is the only attested ancient pronunciation. Clement's are 
straighforward derivations from Iao.
Other arguments include: the Egyptian word Iao with related meaning, and 
impossibility of declaring a well-known hwh verb a great secret.

> Also, do you think you could humour me and say you/yours instead of 
> thee/thine? 

To avoid confusing 2nd and 3rd person.

> On to the theophoric componenents and the shortened name Yah. I still 
> haven't entirely
understood how you would relate these to your suffix theory. 

Assuming that Iao stands for 1-2-3s suffixes, imagine these transformations:

3ms suffix hu (later became au, then o) could be written as he rather than 
waw. This transforms Y-H-W into Y-H-H, or YH with mappiq. Thus the form YH or 
YaH.
Writing 3ms suffix as hu instead of waw, YH becomes YHu or YHo.

> Also, how does your theory entwine with Yah's revelation of his name to 
> Moshe?

Let's keep this to linquistic issues.

> And what vowels would you have us put in YHWH to make your theoretical form 
> pronounceable?

We started from that: Iao. No vowels. YHW consist of all matres lectionis; in 
a sense, monument to the linguistic breakthrough, invention of matres 
lectionis.

> Do you agree that the theophoric components were pronounced 
> Yaho/Yahu/Y:ho/Y:hu?

No. Iota-omega. He was not pronounced precisely because it is mater 
lectionis, and its "a" sound was assimilated into omega.

> Can you cite any other examples of a 'he' maters lectionis midword?

YHW is not a morphologically normal word.

Vadim Cherny


RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciationStart with possessive suffixes: i, a, u. For 
this or that reason, not essential here, supportive consonants were 
introduced: i, ca (ta), hu.. Suffix consonants lack semantical importance. 
Also note that 3ms hu-au-o, giving rise to yhu-yho-yao variants.

There is a noun "an," essence. Ani (or, with non-essential suffix consonant, 
anoci) is "my essence," abstracized as I. Ata is anta, "thine essence" that 
became "thou." Anacnu is similarly "our essence." Different etymologies were 
proposed for hu, but for our case only u is important, 3s possessive suffix, 
making hu some word emasculated into he and 3s possessive suffix u.

Iao would be literally "my, thine, his" (i-a-u, or later i-a-o), but I 
speculate that Iao stands more generally for "I, thou, he" epitomized by the 
possessive suffixes.

Vadim Cherny

> To the best of my knowledge I,You,He would be:

)aNoCHiY)THuW)
and I really struggle to see how you turn that into a IAO transliteration.

RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation> I am interested to know how you come about 
such a radical
theory. You must have more reason than a philosophical idea of a society.

Well, only "I, thou, he" could be pronounced Iao.. The verb cannot.
Plural suffixes are construed similarly. Duality ai (later - plural e-ei-im) 
means "thou, I". Abstract plural -o (-ot) is -au, "thou, he." This makes 
sense: using 1s, the most personal relation, for duality, and 3ms, the 
remotest, for abstract plurality.
Suffixes are vowels only. Consonants are semantical devices, vowels - 
morphological. Suffix consonants change between nouns and verbs, but vowels 
persist. Suffix consonants (caf 2s nouns, tav 2s verbs) served perhaps to 
write down suffixes without matres lectionis, or perhaps to avoid post-tonic 
gemination in penultimates-stressed nouns. This is a separate topic.
YHWH cannot be a meaningful word, like the verb, since no one could possibly 
declare a well-attested verb a great secret with unknown pronunciation.

> How would you account for the forms YaH, YaHu/YaHo with your model?

he could be mater lectionis for 2ms suffix -a. Incidentally, he is also 
"supportive consonant" of 3ms -hu-au-o. Thus, yau=yhh=yh with mappiq.
yhu=yau with mater lectionis
yho=yao=yau with 3ms hu-o

> How would you account for the transliterations IABE, IAOUAI etc.?

Iabe is literal, not phonetic transliteration; waw-beta.
Iaouai is plural form of Iao, modeled upon plural Elokim..

> Are there any patterns ANE cultures that led you to this hypothesis?

Of course, Judaism is unique.

> Is there any internal evidence in the TaNaKH which supports your theory?

Depending on how you read it. Milgrom's interpretation, I believe, is 
supportive.

Vadim Cherny

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> > I doubt ayn-ayn for hi or hw cell.
> >
> Well, it is a fact that in EVERY part of lamed-he verbs in which the
> final he is actually written, that he is a mater lectionis, as pointed
> by the Masoretes. For it is always word final, and never has mappiq.
> This of course excludes a small class of verbs where the third radical
> is an actual consonantal he, pointed with mappiq when word final - but
> HWH is not one of those verbs.
>

Right. This might make hwh an artificial extension of hw, but doesn't prove
hww.

Aramaic had its hwh well before Masoretic interpretations, and neither hw,
nor hww or hii is, to my knowledge, attested.

About "a small class," I don't think that there are many lamed"heys which
are not radicals, either.

> >Then aleph in Iao is unlikely to originate from schwa. Rather, Y- I, H-
a,
> >WH - o.
> >
> I never said it did arise from schwa. But I note that he (in biblical
> Hebrew), when not word final, NEVER represents an "a" sound, but always
> a pronounced consonant - as you recognise below apparently with your
> garbled "vcvv".

I only mentioned that YHWH, *if* a verb, is pronounced vcvv (why garbled,
anyway?) and is unlikely to lose consonantal he.
As you correctly noted, first he would not be lost in YHWH, and the word
could not be pronounced as Iao. But rather than dismiss Iao, the only
attested pronunciation, I say that the first he is no radical, and YHWH is
not a verb. Rather, each of the YHW letters is mater lectionis. The word is
compound of matres lectionis for 1-2-3s suffixes. This explains the
pronunciation Iao. Verb hypothesis doesn't explain Iao.

> Indeed. I never claimed that Iao is derived from anything like ihie or
> ihwe. Probably it is derived from the original form of the prefix of
> theophoric names, which was probably Yaho-, later shortened to Yeho-
> with a schwa.

This seems odd to me. I always assumed that theophoric constructs originate
from divine names, not vice versa.
Besides, your hypothesis just circumvents the basic question of the meaning
of the name, whether YHWH or Yaho. Say, we assume for a moment that the
original name was Yaho. What does that mean? We come back to the starting
point. In my hypothesis, Iao-YHW has clear and profound meaning,
"mine-thine-his" or "I, thou, he." In another plane, the name consists of
the jewels of the linguistic development, the vowels, matres lectionis.

> >In my opinion, you unwarrantedly ignore a rare phonetic environment of
YHWH,
> >vcvv. ...
>
> I don't understand this. The yod MUST be a consonant because ALL Hebrew
> words start with a consonant.

If it looks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then before the law it is a
duck. Iod is pronounced as a vowel in 3ms FT, and there is no evidence
whatsoever that it ever was pronounced as consonant, at least as 3ms FT
prefix.
If you are inclined to dwell into this issue, it is my belief that iod in
3ms FT is mater lections derived from he in 3ms nouns. A similar process
made iod 2fs FT suffix where we could expect he.

> The final he may be a consonant, but is probably silent.

I think, it is mater lectionis, suffix of result, like in catav-ctiva. Iaoa
naturally was pronounced Iao.

> I don't know of any cases in biblical Hebrew where -WH is used for a word
final "o" sound - it is
> either W or H, but not both of them together.

I don't say WH was used for o. I think, it was YHW+H, 1-2-3ms suffixes +
suffix of result. Iaoa became Iao. I would not be surprized to learn that
Iaoa did not exist, but he always was silent, allowing association with ass
in Egyptian tongue.

> On the other hand, there is evidence which I posted
> earlier today for a final -e vowel sound.

The problem is, no other hypothesis explains the pronunciation Iao. If YHW
is not a compound of matres lectionis, but a regular word, he must have been
pronounced.

Vadim Cherny