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- From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
- To: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
- Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
- Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:56:08 +0100
Vaddim wrote:
> However, I am interested to know how you would view the pronunciation of
IAO. Do you consider it as bisylabic or monosyllabic (as in ciao)?
As I mentioned earlier, in my opinion, Iao is a compoud of the possessive
suffixes: 1s, 2ms, 3ms with the meaning "I, thou, you," a society. Final he
could be a suffix of result (catav - ctiva).
This sense of the Tetragrammaton, a society, is congruent with my--and
seemingly Milgrom's--argument that Judaism is a social ethics wrapped as
religion.
END QUOTE
First of all, nobody says 'thou' anymore.
More importantly, though, I am interested to know how you come about such a
radical
theory. You must have more reason than a philosophical idea of a society.
How would you account for the forms YaH, YaHu/YaHo with your model?
How would you account for the transliterations IABE, IAOUAI etc.?
Are there any patterns ANE cultures that led you to this hypothesis?
Is there any internal evidence in the TaNaKH which supports your theory?
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
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Actually the transliterations contain no consanants at all.
IAW is three vowels
IAOUAI is six vowels
while
IABE is the only transliteration containing a consanant and is evidently
the transliteration of a form in a perios and place where the waw was
pronounced as a 'v'.
The Greeks had no way of representing the consonant 'yodh' and so replaced it
with an 'I'. They could not replace the 'He' for two reasons
a) The sound is not even remotely similar
b) It would have been confused as a 'gimmel'
Conclusion
The transliterations we seeee represent the vowels rather than the consonants
as the consonants were impossible to perfectly represent. Althoug,it was
possible
to partially represent the 'yodh' and the 'waw' as in IAOUAI
YaHoWaY/YaHoWeH/YaHoWaH
-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 7:01 PM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciationExactly. In your examples, he is not lost,
but somehow transliterated. One such transliteration is assimilation
ha-alpha. In Iao, the second he is lost completely. Peter, as I understand
him, suggests that the first he is also lost completely, though much weaker
schwa survived as aleph.
Also, your examples show very different phonological environment from the
verb ihwh (VCVV). Preservation of a single consonant in the word among vowels
is highly likely. Significantly, he is pronounced even now in this word,
though largely lost elsewhere.
Vadim Cherny
> Both the LXX and the Christian Greek scriptures are filled with them.
Every name
which has a 'he' midword in Hebrew has absolutely attempt at rendering such
in
the Greek. e.g. IHSOUS, IWANHN etc. The W represents an omega (long 'O')
and the
H represents Eta (various theories on how this was pronounced classical
Greek
view is similar to 'air' Koine Greek view is 'eh' as in they)
RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciationIs there a transliterated name where root
he was lost, especially in the emphatic environment of vowelized third root
letter? After all, first he is clearly pronounced in this verb even now, when
he is otherwise lost.
Vadim Cherny
The wealth of attestations of Hebrew name transliterations stands
overwhelmingly
against your reasoning here. I am not aware of even one Greek
transliteration of
a Hebrew name which attempts to represent the 'he'. The greeks could only
pronounce
a 'he' at the very beginning of a name e.g. HO THEOS and the difference
between
such an aspiration and a gamma was more than evident to Greek speakers.
Of course, if you can find examples of Hebrew names transliterated with a
gamma in
the place of the 'he' then I will have to reconsider my position on this.
-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Vadim Cherny
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 7:27 AM
To: Peter Kirk
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
> The form IAW is just one of many different attested Greek forms of the
> Name. It deserves no more specific attention than the others. But it
> clearly corresponds to the first part of the names starting Jeho-, since
> sheva was often represented by alpha and Greek has no "h".
Why Iaw? Iao. Iaw gives substance to the verb hypothesis.
All other forms are derivative from Iao, as far as I understand. None of
them is even remotely related to any possible pronunciation of the verb.
That Greeks had no he doesn't mean that they could not transcribe it and
omitted it. If alpha is for shewa, then it is completely incredible that
reasonably careful Clement omitted both sounds he. The first he is
sufficiently strong for the Greeks to hear; the sound is closer to gamma
than to nil. Also, if your careful Greeks represented schwa with alpha,
all
the more they should represent somehow the second he - much strong than
schwa. Final he also has much stronger claim for the "alpha-status" than
the
schwa has. Greek form of the verb would be, rather, igba, iagba, or iaga.
Do we have he in a similar position in Secunda? I don't have Hexapla at
hand. Perhaps you remember.
I think, Feldman also cites Varro for Iao. It is unlikely that Romans,
too,
did not hear any he. Anyway, with these assumptions of missing he anything
could be justified.
If I understand you correctly, you say that Iao is yaho-smth name, not
YHWH.
This assumption, you see, is pure and far-fetched conjecture. We know that
Iao was the Name; neither ancient author was speaking of generic Hebrew
names. In any case, the names derived from the Name, and if the names were
pronounced Iao, then YHWH was likewise.
Just admit that Iao and other attested pronunciations run head-on against
the verb hypothesis.
Vadim Cherny
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>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Mon Aug 1 14:15:32 2005
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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This seems to suggest that YaHo could exist by itself as could YaH and YHWH.
Just because we do not see such a form in the Tanakh does not conclusively
mean that such a form did not exist. And I am unaware of any other naming
component that is a shortened form that cannot be used independently.
As to your reference of a plural suffix:
A plural of what?
Didn't you propose that the name is compound of 'I/You'?
What would the plural form mean? 'I/You/We'?
-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 7:06 PM
To: Read, James C
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation> I can understand why you would expect the
gamma. My wife is Ukrainian and her bible
has something like 'yegovi' as the representation of the divine name.
I don't expect gamma. I said the sound of he in this particular environment
is closer to gamma than to nil.
> When I said that IAO was a transliteration of the name, I meant possible of
> the shortened
form we find in names YHW (said theophoric component) and was not in any way
referring to
the longer more complete version YHWH, of which we see tranliterations of the
form IAOUAI.
Doesn't work. Diodorus referred to the name, not theophoric construct as Iao.
Iaouai is plural form of Iao, modeled, I think, on Elokim. There is no way to
read YHWH with final "ai," evidently plural suffix.
Vadim Cherny
> But why should I avoid suggestions which give substance to the verb
> hypothesis? I am only quoting the evidence.
Iaw is no evidence. Iao spelling is not conformant with the verb hypothesis.
No one could have pronounced the verb as Iao even remotely. Since we have
independent testimonies in Diodorus and Clement, Iao is not a garbled form,
but mainstream, and cannot be a verb.
> True, they COULD have replaced it by gamma or something, as in Russian.
> But the fact is that they did not. It is abundantly clear from many
> transcriptions of biblical and other names that the normal practice was
> simply to omit he.
I wrote to James, loss of the second root he is unlikely, especially in the
environment so emphatic (other two radicals--if that is a verb-- vowelized)
that he is pronounced there even now.
> In fact the evidence is clear that Greeks transliterated
> the "h" sound as zero.
This general trend is unlikely in the present case, see above.
> >... Also, if your careful Greeks represented schwa with alpha, all
> >the more they should represent somehow the second he - much strong than
> >schwa. ...
>
> Well, my position is that the final he of YHWH is in fact silent.
It is not silent in the verb, but vowelized, and so we might a fortiori
expect alpha, if alpha was earlier used even for schwa.
> >I think, Feldman also cites Varro for Iao. It is unlikely that Romans,
too,
> >did not hear any he. ...
>
> Maybe, but very likely Varro was transliterating a Greek version of the
> name.
I cannot deny this possibility, but is it likely? Varro had plenty of Jews
around.
Vadim Cherny
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>From VadimCherny AT mail.ru Mon Aug 1 14:22:58 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
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> Just to clarify here, the root we are considering is conventionally
> regarded as HWH but is in fact more correctly HWY (or perhaps HWW),
> because the final he (which has no mappiq, so I my suggestion has no
> problem with mappiq) is in fact not a pronounced he but a mater
> lectionis replacing an original yod (or perhaps vav).
Not impossible, but hardly a fact. I doubt ayn-ayn for hi or hw cell.
> As for other cases of root letter he being omitted in Greek
> transcription, we have been discussing another example on this list
> recently, Greek ELWI for Hebrew Elohi or Elohay in Mark 15:34.
A sort of third-hand hearsay. Diodorus heard Iao from Hebrews, not from
Greek-speaking Christians.
> We also have all the Hebrew names starting Yeho- which are all
transliterated
> starting iota-omega,
Then aleph in Iao is unlikely to originate from schwa. Rather, Y- I, H- a,
WH - o.
> also the name of king Yehu' (Jehu), which is EIOU,
> IHOU or IOU in Greek (H = eta) with no consonant replacing he.
Here he survived, as you see, though mutilated. Undoubtedly, you recognize
that similar pronunciation cannot make Iao out of ihie or ihwe.
In my opinion, you unwarrantedly ignore a rare phonetic environment of YHWH,
vcvv. If it is a verb, then first he has the best chance to be preserved as
consonant. In teophoric examples, existence of other consonants allow
vowelization of he.
Vadim Cherny
-
Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
, (continued)
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Peter Kirk, 08/03/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/03/2005
- Message not available
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/04/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Peter Kirk, 08/04/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/01/2005
-
Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation,
Vadim Cherny, 08/01/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Peter Kirk, 08/01/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/02/2005
- Re: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/02/2005
-
Message not available
- Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation, Vadim Cherny, 08/02/2005
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