Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Both the LXX and the Christian Greek scriptures are filled with them. Every 
name 
which has a 'he' midword in Hebrew has absolutely attempt at rendering such 
in 
the Greek. e.g. IHSOUS, IWANHN etc. The W represents an omega (long 'O') and 
the 
H  represents Eta (various theories on how this was pronounced classical 
Greek 
view is similar to 'air' Koine Greek view is 'eh' as in they) 


-----Original Message-----
From: Vadim Cherny [mailto:VadimCherny AT mail.ru]
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 1:46 PM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
RE: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciationIs there a transliterated name where root he 
was lost, especially in the emphatic environment of vowelized third root 
letter? After all, first he is clearly pronounced in this verb even now, when 
he is otherwise lost.

Vadim Cherny


  The wealth of attestations of Hebrew name transliterations stands 
overwhelmingly
  against your reasoning here. I am not aware of even one Greek 
transliteration of
  a Hebrew name which attempts to represent the 'he'. The greeks could only 
pronounce
  a 'he' at the very beginning of a name e.g. HO THEOS and the difference 
between
  such an aspiration and a gamma was more than evident to Greek speakers.

  Of course, if you can find examples of Hebrew names transliterated with a 
gamma in
  the place of the 'he' then I will have to reconsider my position on this.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Vadim Cherny
  Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 7:27 AM
  To: Peter Kirk
  Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation

  > The form IAW is just one of many different attested Greek forms of the
  > Name. It deserves no more specific attention than the others. But it
  > clearly corresponds to the first part of the names starting Jeho-, since
  > sheva was often represented by alpha and Greek has no "h".

  Why Iaw? Iao. Iaw gives substance to the verb hypothesis.

  All other forms are derivative from Iao, as far as I understand. None of
  them is even remotely related to any possible pronunciation of the verb.

  That Greeks had no he doesn't mean that they could not transcribe it and
  omitted it. If alpha is for shewa, then it is completely incredible that
  reasonably careful Clement omitted both sounds he. The first he is
  sufficiently strong for the Greeks to hear; the sound is closer to gamma
  than to nil. Also, if your careful Greeks represented schwa with alpha, all
  the more they should represent somehow the second he - much strong than
  schwa. Final he also has much stronger claim for the "alpha-status" than the
  schwa has. Greek form of the verb would be, rather, igba, iagba, or iaga.

  Do we have he in a similar position in Secunda? I don't have Hexapla at
  hand. Perhaps you remember.

  I think, Feldman also cites Varro for Iao. It is unlikely that Romans, too,
  did not hear any he. Anyway, with these assumptions of missing he anything
  could be justified.

  If I understand you correctly, you say that Iao is yaho-smth name, not YHWH.
  This assumption, you see, is pure and far-fetched conjecture. We know that
  Iao was the Name; neither ancient author was speaking of generic Hebrew
  names. In any case, the names derived from the Name, and if the names were
  pronounced Iao, then YHWH was likewise.

  Just admit that Iao and other attested pronunciations run head-on against
  the verb hypothesis.

  Vadim Cherny

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No-one claimed it was a representation of the full verb. In the Hebrew test 
we see
YHWH as the complete name, YH as a shortened version (mainly in poetry) and 
YHW as 
a shortened version of the name included in other peoples names e.g. YHWNTHN 
yehonathan 
Jonathan in English, Igor in Syryllic languages.('scholarly' people like to 
refer to 
these as theophoric components, it makes them seem intelligent and thus an 
authority
on the subject).
I can understand why you would expect the gamma. My wife is Ukrainian and her 
bible 
has something like 'yegovi' as the representation of the divine name. 
However, such 
transliterations have made their way through many languages before reaching 
the 
Syryllic languages and do not reflect the way in which the ancient Greeks 
transliterated
names.
When I said that IAO was a transliteration of the name, I meant possible of 
the shortened 
form we find in names YHW (said theophoric component) and was not in any way 
referring to 
the longer more complete version YHWH, of which we see tranliterations of the 
form IAOUAI.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Vadim Cherny
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 1:57 PM
To: Peter Kirk
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
> But why should I avoid suggestions which give substance to the verb
> hypothesis? I am only quoting the evidence.

Iaw is no evidence. Iao spelling is not conformant with the verb hypothesis.
No one could have pronounced the verb as Iao even remotely. Since we have
independent testimonies in Diodorus and Clement, Iao is not a garbled form,
but mainstream, and cannot be a verb.

> True, they COULD have replaced it by gamma or something, as in Russian.
> But the fact is that they did not. It is abundantly clear from many
> transcriptions of biblical and other names that the normal practice was
> simply to omit he.

I wrote to James, loss of the second root he is unlikely, especially in the
environment so emphatic (other two radicals--if that is a verb-- vowelized)
that he is pronounced there even now.

> In fact the evidence is clear that Greeks transliterated
> the "h" sound as zero.

This general trend is unlikely in the present case, see above.

> >... Also, if your careful Greeks represented schwa with alpha, all
> >the more they should represent somehow the second he - much strong than
> >schwa. ...
>
> Well, my position is that the final he of YHWH is in fact silent.

It is not silent in the verb, but vowelized, and so we might a fortiori
expect alpha, if alpha was earlier used even for schwa.

> >I think, Feldman also cites Varro for Iao. It is unlikely that Romans,
too,
> >did not hear any he. ...
>
> Maybe, but very likely Varro was transliterating a Greek version of the
> name.

 I cannot deny this possibility, but is it likely? Varro had plenty of Jews
around.

Vadim Cherny

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>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk  Mon Aug  1 09:45:14 2005
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Er Steven. I think you are mixing me up with someone else. I haven't 
dismissed 
any of the evidence you have provided and have been among those very 
interested 
in it and found the new evidence very welcoming.
If I made any questions about it, it was only so that I could be absolutely 
sure  
of its authenticity before using it in future debates on the subject.
However, I am still a little reluctant to put full stock in it because there 
is 
no way we can conclusively prove that their assertion that missionaries 
brought 
the pronunciation are unfounded. Although, I am personally almost convinced 
by 
your arguments.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Segall [mailto:segall AT umich.edu]
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 2:33 PM
To: Jack Kilmon
Cc: Read, James C; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
As I stated in a previous e-mail, the pronunciations were written down by 
native English speakers in the English alphabet before the invention of a 
Cherokee alphabet. These native English speakers lived among the Cherokee 
and spoke their language. The pronunciation has been preserved by native 
Cherokees to this day, but the earlier pronunciation may be more reliable 
as being closer to the original.

The hypothesis that this pronunciation was given to the Cherokees by 
missionaries does not hold up because the legends of the Cherokee religion 
do not include any reference to Jesus, which certainly would have been the 
case if the source were missionaries.

With regard to James Read dismissing the reference and website I sited as 
a source of information, I would say you can't judge a book by its title, 
and the remark was quite arrogant and inappropriate. The website was 
www.etzhaimpress.com and you can judge for yourself.

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Jack Kilmon wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
> To: "Stephen Segall" <segall AT umich.edu>
> Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
>
>
>> 
>> What alphabet are these pronunciations based on? Can you
>> provide images?
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen Segall [mailto:segall AT umich.edu]
>> Sent: Wed 7/27/2005 9:51 PM
>> To: Read, James C
>> Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: RE: YHWH pronunciation
>> 
>> The pronunciation was based on diaries kept by traders who lived with the
>> Cherokees for decades and detailed their customs and religion.
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, Read, James C wrote:
>
>
> The Bible was translated and printed in Cherokee using the Sequoian 
> syllabulary in 1825.
>
> http://www.manataka.org/page81.html
>
> Jack 
>
>
>

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Plus, I quite like your website and was very impressed by the way you handled 
the criticisms of the archeologist with the theory that the Hebrews did not 
come from Egypt. I think your reasoning handled the matter very well.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Read, James C
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 2:42 PM
To: Stephen Segall
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 

Er Steven. I think you are mixing me up with someone else. I haven't 
dismissed 
any of the evidence you have provided and have been among those very 
interested 
in it and found the new evidence very welcoming.
If I made any questions about it, it was only so that I could be absolutely 
sure  
of its authenticity before using it in future debates on the subject.
However, I am still a little reluctant to put full stock in it because there 
is 
no way we can conclusively prove that their assertion that missionaries 
brought 
the pronunciation are unfounded. Although, I am personally almost convinced 
by 
your arguments.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Segall [mailto:segall AT umich.edu]
Sent: Mon 8/1/2005 2:33 PM
To: Jack Kilmon
Cc: Read, James C; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
 
As I stated in a previous e-mail, the pronunciations were written down by 
native English speakers in the English alphabet before the invention of a 
Cherokee alphabet. These native English speakers lived among the Cherokee 
and spoke their language. The pronunciation has been preserved by native 
Cherokees to this day, but the earlier pronunciation may be more reliable 
as being closer to the original.

The hypothesis that this pronunciation was given to the Cherokees by 
missionaries does not hold up because the legends of the Cherokee religion 
do not include any reference to Jesus, which certainly would have been the 
case if the source were missionaries.

With regard to James Read dismissing the reference and website I sited as 
a source of information, I would say you can't judge a book by its title, 
and the remark was quite arrogant and inappropriate. The website was 
www.etzhaimpress.com and you can judge for yourself.

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Jack Kilmon wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
> To: "Stephen Segall" <segall AT umich.edu>
> Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] YHWH pronunciation
>
>
>> 
>> What alphabet are these pronunciations based on? Can you
>> provide images?
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen Segall [mailto:segall AT umich.edu]
>> Sent: Wed 7/27/2005 9:51 PM
>> To: Read, James C
>> Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: RE: YHWH pronunciation
>> 
>> The pronunciation was based on diaries kept by traders who lived with the
>> Cherokees for decades and detailed their customs and religion.
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, Read, James C wrote:
>
>
> The Bible was translated and printed in Cherokee using the Sequoian 
> syllabulary in 1825.
>
> http://www.manataka.org/page81.html
>
> Jack 
>
>
>

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On 01/08/2005 14:03, Vadim Cherny wrote:

>Then it cannot be well-attested root hwh or hih. What is that ayn-ayn root
>hwy/hww Peter suggests? I don't recall such root at all.
>
>
>
Just to clarify here, the root we are considering is conventionally
regarded as HWH but is in fact more correctly HWY (or perhaps HWW),
because the final he (which has no mappiq, so I my suggestion has no
problem with mappiq) is in fact not a pronounced he but a mater
lectionis replacing an original yod (or perhaps vav).

But it was James, not me, who wrote HWY/HWW.

As for other cases of root letter he being omitted in Greek
transcription, we have been discussing another example on this list
recently, Greek ELWI for Hebrew Elohi or Elohay in Mark 15:34. We also
have all the Hebrew names starting Yeho- which are all transliterated
starting iota-omega, also the name of king Yehu' (Jehu), which is EIOU,
IHOU or IOU in Greek (H = eta) with no consonant replacing he. And if
you want an example unrelated to the divine name, try Greek MALELEHL in
Genesis 5:12 LXX and following for Hebrew MAHALAL'EL, and Greek IALLELHL
in 2 Chronicles 29:12 LXX, for Hebrew Y:HALLEL'EL.

Meanwhile, as James wrote, "if you can find examples of Hebrew names
transliterated with a gamma in the place of the 'he' then I will have to
reconsider my position on this." I would be surprised if you can find
any example of this Russian convention being used in Hellenistic Greek.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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