Biblical Hebrew Forum

["George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:08:34 +0200 "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
writes:
> While I agree with George's statement below, what do you do with 1 
> Chr.
> 7:20-28, in which the sons of Ephraim were killed by the men of 
> Gath, and
> Ephraim, after mourning their loss, then had another son and a 
> daughter (or
> maybe granddaughter), who "built" places in the Beth-horon area. 
> This would
> seem to contradict the Torah, according to which Ephraim was born in 
> Egypt
> and never lived in Canaan. There are many other passages in the 
> Chr.
> genealogies which seem to assume that the sons of Jacob and their 
> immediate
> descendants all lived in the Land of Israel, but this is the most 
> specific.
> Sarah Japhet concluded that the Chronicler denied the whole 
> Egypt-Exodus
> story. I would not go that far, but this certainly does not fit in 
> with the
> passages y'all have been quoting.
> 
> There is a talmudic midrash, by the way, that explains this by 
> claiming that
> there was a group of Israelites who tried to "hasten the redemption" 
> by
> fleeing Egypt right after the death of Joseph and attempting to 
> settle in
> Canaan. Of course they failed, since they were not following God's 
> plan.
> 
> Yigal
> 
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > I dislike fundamentalist squirming to avoid obvious problems with 
> a text
> > and the archaeological / non-biblical documentary evidence.  
> Here,
> > however, I think we have a case where there is truly no attempt to 
> avoid
> > the facts by any technicality.  Josh 13.31 and 17.1 do not imply 
> that
> > Machir was living at the time of the conquest.  Rather it states 
> in 13.31
> > that it was LiB:N"Y MfKiYR (the descendants of Machir) that it was 
> to be
> > given.  Similarly in 17.1 it is as a figure of speech where the
> > descendants are signified by their progenitor.  This is not 
> uncommon in
> > the Biblical literature.  Consider too that had Machir actually 
> been in
> > the conquest this would have contradicted the judgment given upon 
> the
> > return of the spies and the murmuring of the people in Nu 14.22, 
> 23 "?22
> > none of the men who have seen my glory and my signs which I 
> wrought in
> > Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have put me to the proof 
> these ten
> > times and have not hearkened to my voice, ?23? shall see the land 
> which I
> > swore to give to their fathers; and none of those who despised me 
> shall
> > see it."  It is first necessary to understand what the text 
> actually says
> > before looking for problems -- perhaps they really don't exist 
> (i.e.
> > those particular problems).
> >
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> > _______________________________________________

At the risk of sounding like one of those I previously mentioned who will
attempt at any cost to avoid an embarassing problem with a text, this
might be explicable.  "The sons of Ephraim:" is a caption to the list
which does not necessarily say anything as to the time in which Ephraim
might have lived.  The problem comes in regard to Ephraim's mourning and
begetting other children though, in this regard, it still says nothing
regarding the time-frame.   The way in which the Chronicler has written
this leaves an impression that it is post-conquest due to the structure. 
David and his progeny are inserted in chapter 3, but it is not
necessarily the case that the whole is post-conquest.  It would seem that
he follows one line for a time then moves on to another giving the
ultimate residence of the descendants.  The question is "When was the
death of Ephraim's sons and the subsequent birth of his "second family"? 
It could have been conceived of as taking place before going down into
Egypt just as the incident of Judah and Tamar in Gen 38 before the
descent  into Egypt in Gen 39.  Note that he begins with Adam and follows
the line through each of his sons until the line reaches Abraham at which
point he follows each of the sons of Abraham and from there follows the
line of Isaac.  None of this is temporally related to the sojourn in
Egypt.  The reader is simply required to deduce this for himself.  

In conclusion, the structure is not first of all temporal but
patrilineal.

george
gfsomsel
>From hholmyard AT ont.com  Wed Sep  1 11:06:44 2004
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:02:11 -0500
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Machir and the Exodus ?
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Dear Yigal

>While I agree with George's statement below, what do you do with 1 Chr.
>7:20-28, in which the sons of Ephraim were killed by the men of Gath, and
>Ephraim, after mourning their loss, then had another son and a daughter (or
>maybe granddaughter), who "built" places in the Beth-horon area. This would
>seem to contradict the Torah, according to which Ephraim was born in Egypt
>and never lived in Canaan. There are many other passages in the Chr.
>genealogies which seem to assume that the sons of Jacob and their immediate
>descendants all lived in the Land of Israel, but this is the most specific.
>Sarah Japhet concluded that the Chronicler denied the whole Egypt-Exodus
>story. I would not go that far, but this certainly does not fit in with the
>passages y'all have been quoting.
>
>There is a talmudic midrash, by the way, that explains this by claiming that
>there was a group of Israelites who tried to "hasten the redemption" by
>fleeing Egypt right after the death of Joseph and attempting to settle in
>Canaan. Of course they failed, since they were not following God's plan.


HH: A rather simple solution to this problem is to understand Ephraim 
in v. 22 as a different Ephraim from the one in verse 20.

1Chr. 7:20 And the sons of Ephraim; Shuthelah, and Bered his son, and 
Tahath his son, and Eladah his son, and Tahath his son,
1Chr. 7:21 And Zabad his son, and Shuthelah his son, and Ezer, and 
Elead, whom the men of Gath that were born in that land slew, because 
they came down to take away their cattle.
1Chr. 7:22 And Ephraim their father mourned many days, and his 
brethren came to comfort him.

HH: From the first Shuthelah (v. 20) to the second Shuthelah (v. 21) 
there are six generations. Ezer and Elead would be named before their 
father Ephraim, who would be a namesake descendant of the original 
Ephraim.

                                        Yours,
                                        Harold Holmyard