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b-hebrew - [b-hebrew] Re: Difference between the DATE OF PRODUCTION of a MSS and the DATE OF THE OLDEST SURVIVING MSS of the same text? i.e. 4QDeutq

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  • From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
  • To: phil-eng AT ighmail.com
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Re: Difference between the DATE OF PRODUCTION of a MSS and the DATE OF THE OLDEST SURVIVING MSS of the same text? i.e. 4QDeutq
  • Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:40:18 -0800

On 05/03/2004 11:27, Philip Engmann wrote:



...


4. So LXX is older than the DSS by about 100 years.







You are comparing two different things, the date of production of LXX

against the date of the oldest surviving MSS of the Hebrew text. To make

a fair comparison, you need to compare date of production of both or

date of oldest MSS of both.


Date of production: As an original text must always be older than its

translation, the Hebrew text must be older than the LXX - unless you try

to argue that the Hebrew is a translation from the Greek.


Date of oldest MSS: Large parts of the Hebrew Bible are preserved in the

DSS. Only a few scraps of the LXX are preserved; the earliest MSS of

substantial parts of the LXX are 4th-5th centuries CE if I remember rightly.


So the Hebrew text clearly wins on both comparisons of age, for what

it's worth.



--

Peter Kirk

peter AT qaya.org (personal)

peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)

http://www.qaya.org/



Thanks Peter,


I am no expert in DSS dating, and I have no fixed position.


But I wonder, what is the difference between the DATE OF PRODUCTION of a text and the DATE OF THE OLDEST SURVIVING MSS of the same text?


For example, the DATE OF THE OLDEST SURVIVING MSS of 4QDeut/q/ is the "second half of the first century BCE or perhaps the beginning of the first century CE" (Discoveries in the Judaean Desert vol 14, p. 138), according to its editors, Patrick Skehan and Eugene Ulrich. (Thanks Soren).


Would you say that this date differs from the DATE OF PRODUCTION of 4QDeut/q/ ?


Philip Engmann


I am talking about the date of production of a text i.e. when it was written or finally redacted. This is distinct from the date of copying of a MS. The date of copying of this particular MS was 1st century CE, but the date when Deuteronomy was written was probably many centuries earlier (and certainly must have been before the date when Deuteronomy was translated into Greek). The date of copying of this MS is also earlier than the date of copying of any surviving LXX MS, at least if we exclude the LXX fragments among the DSS.

I realise this is somewhat over-simplified if we suppose a complex textual history for Deuteronomy and other books, in which copying and redaction cannot be separated. Nevertheless, the generally close agreement between the MT and the LXX, except in certain passages, suggests that we can speak of a reasonably stable Hebrew text, without major redaction of most parts of it, from before the date of translation into Greek.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/





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