Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Mark & Mary Markham" <markhamm AT topsurf.com>]

Peter,

Do people realy use Matt. 18:20 (-- in context CHURCH DISCIPLINE) to
describe the presence of the Lord? That would be strange since the event
Eric describes has little to do with formal discipline.

Also the actual mainifeststion-- visible etc., is described in all the below
refs. They can not be the same-- can they?

Grace to you,

Mark Markham
Heidelberg, Germany
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter_Kirk AT SIL.ORG <Peter_Kirk AT SIL.ORG>
To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: The "presence" of the Lord


E Weiss wrote:

In Charismatic Christian circles, in which I have often moved, a
frequent
expression is "the presence of the Lord" (or "the presence of the Holy
Spirit"). This is used to refer to that palpable "feeling" (whether
real or
subjective - but it is real to those who sense it) of a change
(usually) in
the "atmosphere" of the meeting room - a kind of "heaviness" or
"thickness"
or "warmness" or "closeness" of SOMETHING, which is connected with the
idea
that God has somehow drawn closer or come into the room or expressed
Himself in a way which can be "felt."

My question is whether "presence of the Lord" is the proper
terminology.
For "presence" in the Hebrew Bible (this phrase doesn't seem to occur
much
in the New Testament) seems often to be a translation of PaNaH or
LiFNeY -
"face" or "to/before the face of (someone)." Yet those saying that
"the
presence of the Lord is here" don't usually mean that we are before
the
face of the Lord or that He is with us in the same sense as when the
Bible
says LiFNeY YHWH. My guess is that something closer to KeBoD -
"glory/heaviness" (equivalent to the Greek DOXA?) - may be a better
term
for what is meant, though when Charismatics speak of "the glory of the
Lord," they are probably referring to something that manifests itself
visibly, not just to the sense of touch.

Any thoughts or help?

In reply:

Interesting question. In the charismatic circles I have moved in
(British and American) I would distinguish three types of "presence of
the Lord". One is a fairly general feeling, a subjective recognition
of the objective truth (according to evangelical teaching) that "where
two or three come together in my name, there am I with them" (Matthew
18:20), i.e. in Old Testament terms that everywhere is potentially
LIPN"Y YHWH, compare Hebrews 10:19-22; and this subjective truth tends
to be reinforced by the atmosphere, music etc (according to one's
taste!) to give a "sense of worship". The second is probably an NT
concept linked to Luke 5:17 "the power of the Lord was present for him
to heal the sick", i.e. the divine presence manifested miraculous
healings and other gifts. And there is a third, rarer "presence of the
Lord" which I have experienced and would link to 1 Kings 8:10-11, also
Isaiah 6:5, Ezekiel 1:28, Daniel 8:17: a presence in holiness which
forces all present to kneel in repentance and worship. This last form
of "presence of the Lord" can be identified perhaps with KABOWD.

Peter Kirk


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