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  • From: Seth Alan Woolley <seth AT positivism.org>
  • To: "Sergey A. Lipnevich" <sergey AT optimaltec.com>
  • Cc: SM-Discuss <sm-discuss AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [SM-Discuss] Being about choice is knowing where to stop
  • Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:20:05 -0700

Sergey, I sympathize with your comments, but see:

http://bugs.sourcemage.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8869

Users are filing bugs on the most _obscure_ of customized hacks.

I think we should leave the decision of what to support in the hands of
the developers. Yes, it's a whole hell of a lot to support odd CFLAGS
like that, but we have the WONTFIX variable. As QA Team Leader, I've
set a few WONTFIXes or LATERs myself.

The last thing we want is to become the patch-hell that is gentoo
portage, and Andrew's put us on the correct track (like grimoire
FUNCTIONS allowing the spell writer to extend sorcery themselves without
having to patch sorcery and get a new release) in this regard.

I think though that md5unpack (which was something I think I helped
introduce) isn't as important as, say, full-tree-aware dependency
resolution and cast ordering on partial rebuilds and updates.

So I say, let the developer decide, and if there are conflicts, let's
vote up or down on it, all together, as developers.

Seth

On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 10:31:05AM -0400, Sergey A. Lipnevich wrote:
> All,
>
> It's been a frequent argument in my conversations with other developers that
> we're about choice. That is true, but only if we know where to stop. Us
> being
> pro-choice doesn't mean we get to build infinite customizability into every
> nook and cranny of the distribution. We've got to know better.
>
> Take security. We're about choice, right? Why don't we leave it for the
> discretion of the user whether they'd like to patch an insecure piece of
> software or not? Why don't we ask in CONFIGURE about every security patch,
> would you like to install it? The reason is common sense: we know and care
> more
> about where the choice stops. The users, knowledgeable or not, don't need to
> spend their brain cycles on this question because we are qualified to make
> this
> decision for them. This reasoning does not inhibit choice.
>
> Choice can lie dormant in a spell, but it's still going to be confusing. For
> example, I created http-dev because I needed Apache 2.1 with new
> authentication
> system. Now, it shows up when people need to install a Web server. It's
> confusing to see apache, apache2, and something else that kinda sorta is the
> same thing, in the list, isn't it? Choice like that is an example of
> developer
> or sysadmin (me) looking for easy way out. On the surface, it creates more
> choice. Below surface, it creates even more confusion.
>
> Another example. Casting evolution2 creates an avalanche of choices for its
> dependencies, and if you agree to more of them, you'll get another avalanche
> from gst-player, and another from qt-x11, and so on. How easy is it to get
> confused? I'd say it's almost impossible not to be. In this case, choice is
> the
> result of our distro's design, and can't be easily simplified. We fight it
> with
> default answers (that do not always make sense, BTW).
>
> Next time we discuss what change to make, I suggest we try going to the
> forums
> or IRC and validating the claim that users need the stuff you suggest.
>
> At this point, I see two trends. We drift away from being a
> sysadmin-friendly
> distribution, we drift away slower from developer-friendly, and we become
> desktop-oriented with majority of spells added for this area. The second,
> more
> arguable trend, is that we increase complexity without adding more value for
> users. I basically operate my servers the same way since 2001, no new
> features
> were added since then that would allow me to be a better sysadmin. As a
> SourceMage section maintainer, my way of doing it also didn't improve
> significantly (I still create new spell by coping existing ones, I still do
> every version upgrade by editing not one but two files in three different
> places, and thank you for md5unpack function 'cause that the only true
> improvement).
>
> I may be wrong on both of these trends, these are very subjective, but this
> is
> how I see it from my place.
>
> So, in our pursuit of choice let's not forget other things, like quality,
> stability, predictability, easy of use, automation of mundane tasks, etc.
>
> Sergey.
> _______________________________________________
> SM-Discuss mailing list
> SM-Discuss AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/sm-discuss
>

--
Seth Alan Woolley [seth at positivism.org], SPAM/UCE is unauthorized
Key id 00BA3AF3 = 8BE0 A72E A47E A92A 0737 F2FF 7A3F 6D3C 00BA 3AF3
Quality Assurance Team Leader; Security Team Member, Leader Emeritus
Linux so advanced, it may as well be magic http://www.sourcemage.org
Elected Coordinating Committee Member, Secretary, and Finances Chair
Pacific Green Party of Oregon - Peace - http://www.pacificgreens.org

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