Permaculture Information Web

[Sean Maley <semaley AT yahoo.com>]

Very interesting comments Heide.  I have been
envisioning "relationships" to mean between one or
more organisms, rather than "nitrogen fixing" and the
sort.  For one, "nitrogen fixing" is a type of
relationship, not a relationship.  I database of
relationships between all species to all other species
would be sizable, but possible.  However, all species
to all species to all types to compound relations
involving more than two species will be mighty big.  I
imagine this to be one of the fundamentals about what
the project could provide to the community.

How many species would be involved in the most complex
relationships?  How many relationship types would be
needed to encompass the whole picture?  How does your
current database capture this information?



-Sean.
--- Heide Hermary <heide.hermary AT gaiacollege.ca>
wrote:
> 
> 
> Chad Knepp wrote:
> 
> >  o Since we only have plants at the moment, how
> should we represent
> >    relationships with non-plant elements
> (animals)?
> >  
> >
> There are not just animals, but microbes as well,
> and they can be 
> antagonistic (as in diseases, pests, etc.), or
> synergistic, as in 
> mycorrhizae, nitrogen fixing bacteria, pollinators,
> etc..  Knowing the 
> specific species involved in all relationships would
> be helpful, 
> wherever that is possible.  For instance not all
> nitrogen fixing plants 
> form relationships with the same species of
> basteria. Most plant 
> diseases and pest are very finnicky about their diet
> (i.e. the plants 
> they care to eat).  I think if we want to go beyond
> current concepts we 
> can start right here, by treating all of these as
> equals and  partners 
> to their relationships
> 
> >  o What sorts of information should a relationship
> have?  Things
> >    like: A list of plants contained in the
> relationship.  One [or more]
> >    word[s] that describe[s] the relationship.
> >  
> >
> See above. So much more information is needed
> 
> >  o Should relationships be owned? editable?
> moderateable?
> >  
> >
> Considering how little information we currently have
> about these, people 
> should not be restricted from entering information. 
> I am questioning 
> the need to "own" a relationship between organisms. 
> I see this more 
> like a huge multidimensional web, where different
> organisms have many 
> different relationships with many other organisms.
> Thus specific 
> relationships don't need to be defined per se, they
> either are or aren't.
> 
> For instance, a plant can have many pollinators.
> Would you define the 
> relationship as "pollination", or as a relationship
> between 2 
> organisms.  In case of the latter, the relationship
> can actually be 
> multi-dimensional (such as a plant providing nectar
> to ladybugs that 
> come and feed on aphids, or whatever).
> 
>  I don't know if that makes sense.
> 
> >  o What's the difference between a
> quality/attribute and a
> >    relationship?  For example is nitrogen fixing a
> relationship or an
> >    attribute?  What about alleopathic (sp?)
> properties?
> >  
> >
> I already talked about the nitrogen fixing
> relationships.  Allelopathic 
> compounds are products produced by plants, not
> necessarily attributes 
> (unless we want to take the human centered
> perspective here).  As such 
> they are used to regulate the plant's relationships
> (i.e. protect itself 
> from predators, competitors, etc., BUT they may also
> and simultaneously 
> be used to encourage other organisms! -). Who knows
> if we can ever 
> understand all that, it is sooo complex, but it
> would be useful for the 
> database to NOT limit the evolution of our
> understanding.
> 
> >  o What's the difference between a comment and a
> relationship?
> >  
> >
> A comment might define or describe the relationship.
> 
> >  
> >  o How is a relationship different from a natural
> plant community?
> >  
> >
> Relationships are specific arrangements between
> organisms, a natural 
> plant community is only one manifestation.  In 
> reality those plants 
> have relationships with all kinds of other
> organisms, including insects, 
> animals, microbes.  How detailed do you want to get?
> 
> Cheers, Heide
> 
> >Also the techie folks on the list can feel free to
> chime in with
> >suggested schema (relational/SQL stuff).  Remember
> different
> >relationships are probably going to be one-to-one,
> one-to-many,
> >many-to-one, and many-to-many.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
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> 


                
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