Permaculture Information Web

[Heide Hermary <heide.hermary AT gaiacollege.ca>]

I have a few minutes before I need to rush off, and this is actually a very good starting point for the discussion on labelling our entry / search fields (i.e. describing)  versus classifying plants.

The database SEARCHES will CLASSIFY plants according to user-selected criteria. I.e. all plants suitable as GROUNDCOVERS in DEEP SHADE with RED FLOWERS blooming in JANURARY in FLORIDA with EDIBLE YELLOW FRUIT . I have no idea if such a plant actually exists, this was just be way of an example.

Our job is to come up with decriptions / labels / criteria that are useful.  Frankly I don't find conventional plant databases very useful, and I seee similar sentiment expressed by others on this list.

Anyway, let's start with the discussion on so-called pests and diseases. These terms are classifying terms, because they are subjective interpretations.  Certain plant PREDATORS can become PESTS under certain circumstances, usually some sort of ecosystem imbalance. Please remember that - as primary land-based carbon fixing organisms - the ecological purpose of plants is to be eaten, dead or alive. But they are intelligent and resourceful beings.  Not only have they developed an arsenal of defensive compounds, structures and life strategies, they also form strategic alliances with other organisms.  These are give and take relationships, and most of them are so complex that they involve a whole group of organisms.  That is what I always image when you talk about "guilds", even though this terms is normally used with a focus on edible plants.  My prime example is caterpillars / butterflies.  The adults will pollinate totally different species than the larvae will feed on.  So for the larval "host" plant the butterfly is a predator for the adult "host" plants the butterfly is a strategic ally for propagative purposes.  So then what is the relationship between the larval host and the adult host plant? I don't know how one would label that, but this relationship is important if we talk about working ecosystems (permaculture).  We are not going have those pollinators if we don't also feed their larvae.

I agree with Mike that the terms "pest" and "diseases" are outdated and only reinforce an antagonistic and patronizing way of perceiving nature.  Just for those who are not clear on this terminology: in general animal plant predators are called "pests", and microbial plant predators are called "diseases".  Other things, such as nutrient deifiencies and other abiotic plant stress SYMPTOMS, are called "diseases" too, which makes it all very confusing.

To further add to the confusion: certain plant predators only become plant "pests" and "diseases"  in certain ecosystems, usually under circumstances that don't provide ideal growing conditions for the plants. Sure, it still is important to report those relationships, but somehow we need bring locality into this.

So yes, lets work on defining WHETHER - and if so HOW - we want to label these relationships. Considering that this is the information we are all looking for - sooo difficult to find (because of the outdated structure of conventional databases) - it would be good to collect as much detail as possible. As such it would be helpful to GUIDE the person who is researching / entering the data with respect to the data that should be recorded.

By the way, when we developed our Gaia College plant database we decided that the only meaningful way to enter this information was in plain text, everything else was simply too restrictive. As I said at the beginning, we need to be conscious of the difference between description and classification. One shortcoming of our database is that we were not specific enough in specifying the information that was actually required as opposed to optional.

We ask students to report on:

1) Synergistic relationships
This is defined as "Many plants grow better in association with other plants. This information is very helpful for landscapers / food growers in selecting synergistic plant combination.  This is also the place to talk about special relationships with microorganisms, animals, etc."  In our experience this has not been enough guidance for the student, as I am not seeing the quality and depth of information that I had hoped they would record.

2) antagonistic relationships
Here the student is asked to provide the following information:

• So-called pests and diseases. Provide a link, to a separate page in the database where you describe the problem and the organic solution in detail. Check the database for examples. (our database uses Wiki technology, so students can make pages aa necessary)
  

• Antagonistic relationships with other plants: does this plant repel other plants? Grow poorly in the presence of other plants?

I would be interested to see some discussion on this.  More on the rest of Richard's list later.

Cheers, Heide

Mike Morris wrote:

Richard Morris wrote:
...

Benifical relationships
    What animals it attracts
    What animals if is a food plant of
    What animals it is a habitat of
    What plants is is know to grow well with
    What plant guilds it is a member of

May I suggest that this simply be "Relationships", which can then include antipathetic/allelpathic information.

For me this relationship information (+, o and -) is usually the hardest to come by, and most crucial.