permaculture

[Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>]

Kelda, I wish you could've heard what I was actually saying without your
filtering it through the dogma you're on. I heard your point of view and I
respected it. I wish you could've at least listened to and respected mine
whether you agree or not. Hey, when you go out of your way to ruin my
reputation (lol), at least do your audience the favor of telling them to
contact me directly to actually hear what I think. Or tell em to come to
North Saint Louis to get the real dope. I'm guessing they won't be quite as
closed minded as you have demonstrated yourself to be here. You're also
welcome anytime.

I wish you well, and am shocked that a little debate hurt you so much that
you want to hurt others. Maybe permaculture isn't for me after all.

Lawrence does this constitute threat on the listserv?

Jason



On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 3:24 PM Kelda Lorax <kelda@riseup.net> wrote:

> Christopher, I do see a white person writing a book about agroforestry
> as cultural appropriation. It doesn't mean I don't think it shouldn't be
> done, per se, but that it should be done with full acknowledgement and
> financial support of the communities that taught You about agroforestry
> or taught Bill Mollison about agroforestry, etc. No one wants to stop
> you from writing it (ie, make enough money from writing it that it's of
> value), but there's my solution (among a handful that I've already
> listed). We white people all need to be better about how we do
> permaculture.
>
> Jason, I definitely think permaculture has a racism problem. Gardening
> is a more neutral topic. Solar panels are a more neutral topic. But
> teaching Design that 'makes the world a better place' being primarily
> branded by white people who've learned techniques from traditional
> communities and that anti-racism is Not a Part of That Design, that's a
> problem.
>
> Nice to meet you two. I don't teach that often but I do have students
> who seek me out or wait because of my social-justice lens with
> permaculture. Now I have opinions of you two and will not hesitate to
> share this interaction with whoever asks. I'm noting who and exactly
> what was demonstrated as personal rudeness to me. The ex-mayor of my
> town can tell you buckets about how you lose your job when you're rude
> to me
>
> See ya
> Kelda Lorax
>
>
>
> On 2017-05-01 02:02, christopher nesbitt wrote:
> > My last word: He offered no solutions. He just threw rocks. Easy to do.
> > Bravo. Well done.
> >
> > _____________________________
> >
> > Christopher Nesbitt
> >
> >
> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> >
> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> >
> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> >
> > BELIZE,
> >
> > Central America
> >
> >
> > www.mmrfbz.org
> > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> >
> > On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:59 AM, christopher nesbitt <
> > christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org> wrote:
> >
> >> *"Cris, it sounds like you're doing a lot to address equity. Can you
> >> be
> >>> doing more? Yes. The video for example, yeah, you did the best you
> >>> could at
> >>> the time, but do we have a need in the permaculture movement to
> >>> address the
> >>> gaping hole of cultural appropriation? Yes. What if your email wasn't
> >>> about
> >>> resistance, but about how we make it more possible to do less
> >>> appropriation?*
> >>>
> >>
> >> Seriously? WHAT GAPING HOLE? Where do i find it? Installing
> >> photovoltaic
> >> systems in schools, clinics and community centers, is that
> >> appropriation?
> >> Designing and installing modified composting toilets from USAID design
> >> from
> >> 1965, is that cultural appropriation? Photovoltaic systems for
> >> community
> >> level water pumping, benefitting over 1000 people and creating the
> >> water
> >> boards to run them, thats appropriation? Food on 900 plates for
> >> elderly
> >> people last year, is that cultural appropriation? 170 Belizean
> >> graduates of
> >> full 72 hour PDCs. Is that cultural appropriation? Working with Maya
> >> farmers to creat a agroforestry manual based on te work I have don for
> >> the
> >> last 29 years, do you think that is cultural appropriation?
> >>
> >> This guy personally attacked a video we made as a way to spread
> >> information to farmers in Belize, most of whom have access to cell
> >> phone
> >> data, saying "*To put it bluntly, this is appropriation of knowledge".
> >> *That
> >> is beyond stupid. It is willfully and enthusiastically uninformed. If
> >> he is
> >> stupid enough to say that, after allegedly watching the video, when it
> >> is
> >> demonstrably untrue, I cannot help him. His problems of understanding
> >> and
> >> comprehension are much deeper than I have time to assist him with..
> >> Maybe,
> >> just... maybe, that's why I was resistant. If you, still, think I need
> >> to
> >> address his clueless accusation of cultural appropriation, or see any
> >> in my
> >> work, I can't help you, either.
> >>
> >> If you see "appropriation" where there was none, there is nothing to
> >> be
> >> gained by engaging in this conversation, further.
> >>
> >> I have work to do. Enjoy your self flaggelating self righteous
> >> masturbation.
> >>
> >> I bow out of the conversation.
> >>
> >> _____________________________
> >>
> >> Christopher Nesbitt
> >>
> >>
> >> Maya Mountain Research Farm
> >>
> >> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> >>
> >> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> >>
> >> BELIZE,
> >>
> >> Central America
> >>
> >>
> >> www.mmrfbz.org
> >> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:23 PM, Jason Gerhardt
> >> <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I guess I don't see racism as a permaculture problem. I see it as a
> >>> human
> >>> problem, with a huge gradient of layers. And I didn't see that
> >>> article as
> >>> being useful to dealing with it. It just seemed a shoddy lambast of
> >>> permaculture in a context I've been working in so I spoke up to ask
> >>> some
> >>> more detailed questions. And some of those questions were about
> >>> cultural
> >>> appropriation, which nobody bit on. I'm guessing very few want to
> >>> have
> >>> this
> >>> conversation, or feel safe doing so, so I'm at least glad we're
> >>> having it.
> >>> We can agree to disagree that Tobias article was on point. And we can
> >>> agree
> >>> on the rest, though we may have different approaches toward the work.
> >>>
> >>> I'm aware permaculture can be perceived as elitist and a white space,
> >>> but
> >>> saying so does discredit a whole lot of people of color who have made
> >>> big
> >>> contributions and apply it in their work (whom I credit and showcase
> >>> their
> >>> work constantly), though most as far as I can tell could care less
> >>> about
> >>> the "movement" part of permaculture, because most that I know are
> >>> busy in
> >>> another movement that is a lot more on point when it comes to ending
> >>> oppression. There's this tendency in permaculture for it to be about
> >>> everything and for everybody and the truth is nothing is like that.
> >>> The
> >>> shoe doesn't always fit. Most people of color I talk to in my city
> >>> don't
> >>> have time for it. They belong to other communities of activism that
> >>> meet
> >>> their needs better. So be it. I'm not gonna tell them they really
> >>> need
> >>> this
> >>> permaculture thing that I find particular value in. Their trying to
> >>> prevent
> >>> the police from killing their neighbor, and being hired by the police
> >>> department to train their officers, or running for office, or just
> >>> pissed
> >>> off in the street. I ask how I can help them in their movement not
> >>> the
> >>> other way around. We're dealing with different contexts. It's okay.
> >>> I'm
> >>> moving on. I have work to do.
> >>>
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Kelda Lorax <kelda@riseup.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Jason, regarding the basics of white privilege, etc take a moment and
> >>> see
> >>> > how I'm addressing everyone who's chimed in on this topic. I admit
> I'm
> >>> > writing as a summary and not addressing point per point for everyone.
> >>> Since
> >>> > you are more trained in anti-racism work than others why didn't you
> call
> >>> > out white fragility instead of me? Regardless of defensive emotions,
> us
> >>> > permaculturists have a lot of work to do addressing cultural
> >>> appropriation.
> >>> > I'm really interested in the solutions and we can't get there if
> those
> >>> of
> >>> > us who see the problem are not speaking up. You may have been more
> >>> gentle
> >>> > than me, but if it was so gentle that I didn't recognize it as a
> >>> 'calling
> >>> > in' then it might need to be a bit more blunt.
> >>> >
> >>> > Tobias critique is not even the most seering towards permaculture
> that
> >>> > I've seen. But it's as good place as any to start.
> >>> >
> >>> > Lawrence, I appreciate your enthusiasm and could say a lot more. But
> >>> maybe
> >>> > for anyone interested in addressing their own racism, this is a
> really
> >>> > useful perspective that's much gentler than I can be:
> >>> > http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2016/08/flossing-and-the-denta
> >>> > l-hygiene-paradigm-of-race-discourse/
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks
> >>> > Kelda
> >>> >
> >>> > On 2017-04-30 13:01, Lawrence London wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Kelda Lorax <kelda@riseup.net>
> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I am quite racist, in the sense that I have unbidden racist things
> pop
> >>> >>> into my mind and thus I scrutinize my mind heavily.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >> What a unique and important topic to bring up. Outstanding. I now
> see
> >>> >> where
> >>> >> you are coming from.
> >>> >> Maybe we can explore this. I said previously that when such unwanted
> >>> >> neural
> >>> >> energies burden my as I make my way through each day I respond by
> >>> thinking
> >>> >> about the Australian Aborigines and their contribution to mankind
> and
> >>> that
> >>> >> they hold the keys to one living in harmony with Nature or rather
> Gaia.
> >>> >> Poof, racist thoughts gone. If only I had known how to do that from
> >>> age 1
> >>> >> to age 40. A related story from my time growing up in a university
> >>> town.
> >>> >> There was a black gentleman who lived nearby whose brother was a
> stone
> >>> >> mason. George Baldwin was a gardener by profession and an eccentric
> >>> fellow
> >>> >> of small stature. He did yard work and landscape maintnance in
> >>> >> neighborhoods mostly occupied by university faculty members and
> their
> >>> >> neighbors. He talked to the plants. He was such a skilled
> >>> horticulturist
> >>> >> that he became
> >>> >> the famous botanist WC Coker's (Coker-Totten "Trees of the
> Southeastern
> >>> >> United States") favorite gardener. That was a real honor for him.
> >>> >> He worked for my parents and other people in the neighborhood.
> >>> Sometimes
> >>> >> he
> >>> >> would come to work and after a while disappear for hours.
> >>> >> A search would find him curled up under a bush with a wine bottle.
> No
> >>> >> problem. To each, his own. Anyway George seemed to me to be some
> kind
> >>> of
> >>> >> plant guru, distant and elite, his lack of education
> notwithstanding.
> >>> >> There
> >>> >> was something about him and about his work that exuded a mystique
> about
> >>> >> the
> >>> >> Earth' landscape, the world of plants what left a lasting
> impression on
> >>> >> me.
> >>> >> At age 40 I became a landscape contractor and later moved to
> farmland
> >>> and
> >>> >> entered the world of natural gardening and permaculture. So, there
> you
> >>> go.
> >>> >> instead of racist thoughts popping into my mind I have memories of
> >>> George,
> >>> >> a supreme steward of the Earth I was graced to have known and
> >>> benefitted
> >>> >> from.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Not because I want to oppress but because I no longer want to be the
> >>> >>> oppressor. If you think it's because I Want to think people of
> color
> >>> are
> >>> >>> lesser, than you don't understand my meaning.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >> No, I did not think that.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> On a gentler note, my husband and I were talking about this whole
> >>> string
> >>> >>> and he said "Well, everyone feels defensive at first"
> >>> >>> -spoken from a man who was Seriously Annoyed every time I pointed
> out
> >>> how
> >>> >>> racist he is, but now looks for it himself and helps other white
> >>> people
> >>> >>> see
> >>> >>> theirs.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >> Well done, Kelda!
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> >>> >> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> >>> >> https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
> >>> >>
> >>> >
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> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> www.realearthdesign.com
> >>>
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