permaculture

[Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>]

I've been following this thread with interest. I hesitate to comment here
again, but I admit to having mixed feelings about the NAPC 2 linking forces
with related groups. It's not that I think permaculture is right and these
other groups are wrong, or that I don't see integration with other
groups as valuable. It's exactly as Scott just said, because it's important
to maintain differences between things that are different sometimes. That's
actually what diversity in any ecological or social system is about, being
able to maintain difference without feeling pressure to homogenize as one.
The strength of interacting with other groups is that there is difference
between them. NAPC 1 was so powerful because it was an event that allowed
permaculture to strengthen itself within itself so that it can effectively
exchange with related groups across differences.

I can understand Scott saying something on this issue. He has been a
staunch defender of the permaculture approach since his long time with
Bill. He has seen permaculture convergences internationally have a high
standard for shared governance and decision making for decades. Those
shared aspects are what we need to work on if permaculture is going to be a
"movement". Would it not be best to work on those things as a unique
grouping of people that we call permaculturists?

Nevertheless, NAPC 2 will be fun and exhilarating in and of itself, but
Scott's call to have a coming together of "permaculturists" is right on in
terms of strengthening this unique force in the world. Unfortunately there
is still little agreement on what makes permaculture unique.

As Koreen said, perhaps this is all in the works for NAPC 2, we just don't
know the schedule. At the surface though, it looks like the event will have
added distraction in terms of transition towners and what not. In my
estimation Scott was just saying, hey it's important that we maintain our
differences from those other groups. If he didn't who else would've said
something? Was the comment too harsh? Maybe, but maybe there should have
been a public comment period to make this important decision. So maybe he
felt the only way to be heard was to say it with force.

Thank you for speaking up, Scott, continually, even when nobody seems to
understand.

Jason Gerhardt

On Saturday, June 4, 2016, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:

> Please give me a break!  The discussion that transpired from my initial
> email has nothing to do with my concern about calling a conference on
> regenerative future a convergence.  I know that email is not the ideal
> forum
> for discussion but I know that my writing is not that difficult to
> comprehend.  Mostly it feels like some game of who is the most "politically
> correct" and I don't really give a shit about winning that title.
>
> Let's say that instead of a "permaculture convergence" we were talking
> about
> a "family reunion".  Everyone is excited about the reunion; it is a time to
> share our similar experiences and to heal wounds from the past and to
> explore new possibilities of our common interests.  Unfortunately one
> family
> decides that the "Jones" family reunion should include any other family
> that
> begins with "J", so they go on the internet and broadcast far and wide that
> the Jones reunion is now the "J" reunion.  Needless to say many of the
> Jones
> are upset because they have nothing to say about the reunion at this time
> because it has been co-opted by one family of Jones who changed the whole
> program.  It has nothing to do with any animosity toward the "J's" it has
> to
> do with common agreements about what the "Jones Reunion" means.
>
> I am not particularly interested in integrating with every "J" in the phone
> book, I don't care if we have in common a love of trees, or grass, or solar
> housing.  I don't care if a select few elders of the Jones clan supported
> the "J" reunion instead of the "Jones" reunion.
>
> So, of course we need to work with other groups and need to network with
> them, if they are an ethical group and I mean in the sense of the
> permaculture ethics.  We need all hands on deck if we are to survive the
> payback of our hubristic behavior; that doesn't mean that we don't need to
> occasionally get together as the permaculture family for a little sit down
> and reassessment.
>
> Now before someone named "Jones" out there writes an excoriating response
> to
> my misuse and miss characterization of the Jones of the world, please
> accept
> my apology, it is not personal it could have been Smith, Swartz, Pittman or
> many other names.
>
> Also, before we wax too poetic about all of the wisdom and contributions of
> the millennial clan and the other younger members of the permaculture
> collective, lets have another look at the 7 day PDC, or the franchise model
> of permaculture, or the big is beautiful school of food production, not to
> leave out the idiotic idea of selling and joining forces with Walmart in
> order to have more clout in the drive for mainstream acceptance.  Each and
> every one of the example listed above have happened and are still happening
> as half baked ideas. That is not to say that change should not happen over
> time as we observe and interact with our environment and each other.  As we
> think of the new paradigm let us not forget that we can't drag the
> shibboleths from the old and expect new results within the new paradigm.  I
> personally don't think that we are any where near a paradigm shift as long
> as we are still bogged down in an economic system (Capitalism) that cannot
> make the connection of world poverty, war, imprisonment, disease, climate
> change, overpopulation, malnutrition and etc. to greed.
>
> I don't believe that permaculture design ideas were carved in stone tablets
> as they were dictated by Bill Mollison disguised as a burning bush. Nor do
> I
> think that new ideas, just because they are new, should be embraced over
> old
> ideas that still remain the best solutions.  Much of the new ideas I hear
> lately are either old ideas dressed up in new clothes or are "a one step
> solution to a two step ditch".
>
> I have absolute confidence that I have clarified my position and there need
> be no more discussion over this reunion that has morphed into a political
> party.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Scott Pittman - Elder Permaculturalist (some might say over the hill
> Permie)
>
>
>
> "Death is not the greatest loss in life, the greatest loss is what dies
> inside us while we live."  - Norman Cousins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> <javascript:;>] On Behalf
> Of Koreen Brennan
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 6:27 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] North American Permaculture Convergence
> thisSeptember! Save the dates!
>
> Interesting discussion! The principle "Integrate, don't segregate"
> resonates very deeply with me. Permaculture is whole systems design. As
> such, it can (and in my view, should) integrate any tool or other system
> that works to improve the overall design and keep it regenerative. It can
> take skill to decipher when to use what tool for sure, but I welcome the
> idea of integrating all great ideas and discoveries into a whole systems
> design toolbox.
>
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 5:41 PM, Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > 'Reinventing Organizations' can be downloaded as an ebook on
> > > pay-what-feels-right from http://www.reinventingorganizations.com <
> > > http://www.reinventingorganizations.com/>, or ordered in print at any
> > > bookstore (ISBN 978-2960133509)
> > >  It does not contain a simple recipe for our task at hand. But it can
> > help
> > > a lot in the mentioned 'some serious training in building collaborative
> > > networks, mentoring, and working with our inner process'.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks, Georg. This would be a valuable route to follow for those
> > inrterested in contributing to the future of Permaculture.
> >
> > an idea:
> >
> > 1) Research and document sources of information about Permaculture, i.e.
> > "the science" of Permaculture. Make lists and put this "out there" for
> > everyone to read.
> > 2) Those with fixed viewpoints about Permaculture could document this,
> the
> > whats whys and wherefores, and "put it out there"
> > 3) Those with viewpoints that include serious acknowledgment of
> > particularly valuable viewpoints of others or organizations could
> document
> > this and make that available.
> > Put 1,2,3 together and disseminate this body of work throughout the media
> > used by the world of permaculture and through all PDC's, gatherings,
> > conventions, workshops and consultations
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lawrence F. London
> > lfljvenaura@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/
> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/116100117925365792988/+Avantgeared/posts
> > https://ello.co/permaculture
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org <javascript:;>
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Koreen Brennan
> http://www.growpermaculture.com
> http://www.permacultureintl.com
> http://northamericanpermaculture.org
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