permaculture

[Juan Manuel Burgos <wsknlahunmen@hotmail.com>]

Personally i believe and fell that this article hits just right in the nail 
in some aspects that need to be seen with new eyes about permaculture

I'm definately not as much experiences as many of the permaculture teacher's 
and practitioners around here, or that i have met in the time (4 years 
aprox.) since i'm practicing and discovering this magnificent 
art-science-game that's permaculture design as a tool for reconecting 
ourselves to the earth, it's messages, it's language, and also with each 
other. we inhabitants and crew of this "spaceship" called Gaia, or Mother 
Earth. But after many experiences, and specially the last year, where i've 
been taking care of a small piece of land (400 sq Mts), hosting workshops for 
other teachers, teaching a bit myself, and also implementing many "recipes 
and techniques" i can say i've lived on flesh some of the things mentioned by 
the author.

It's quite noticeable at this point of permacultre history that not 
everything that has been taught and said about it it's just like that, right, 
an unquestionable truth. In fact, i feel, that as every other model, it has 
to be questioned. Let us grant ourselves the chance of doing it with an 
objective, critic, and open heart-mind attitude, so as to "obtain a yield" 
from the experiences we live and also the ones other fellow partners are 
finding on their way.

Not all the world wants to be a forest garden. That's a fact. We speak of 
regeneration of the eart, ok, let's do it, but sahara desert, probably will 
want to be just like that, it is the porpouse of it's existence, same as some 
other landscapes. We're in a point where experience shows as what works, what 
doesn't, and for sure when future generations take our place, they will say 
to them (with a thankful and mindful attitude) thank you ancestors for doing 
the best you could, we can see now that you've missed the point here and 
there, and we have to responsibility to keep on working to continue and 
improoving what you've done. Personally i even think that they will almost 
transform the name...maybe DInamiCulture...the only thing that's permanent, 
is change.

My biggest teacher this year has been the vegetable garden. At firts, 
implemented during a workshop (the way i see it, a little bit to 
"hyperventilated") held by a well known teacher from around here (argentina). 
Without a detailed design, a lot of soil was moved, in a single day. The idea 
was to make a "Ecosistemic Garden" something similar to what Emilia Hazzelip 
proposes as Synergistic Agriculture. After a year trying to plan and 
implement sowing, harvest, growing, managing, etc. of this piece of land, it 
was obvious it had to be redesigned. Completely. After a big and hard work, 
alone, it was done. Now the space usage has been optimized, water-wise design 
implemented, maintenance tasks far better done, and many more benefits. The 
first proposal was a chaotic garden, profitable for Gaia, but not for people, 
at least in the context of a plot of land that you expect to get a yield in 
the short term, so as, in the future, implement a garden that can manage 
itself without that much energy. Now, it is another fact that there's some 
kind of work that we have to do in order to obtain a yield. Nature works "Wu 
Wei" style, but it takes a time to do so in spaces where we have to 
regenerate broken cycles. Until that, it's wise enought to honour and respect 
what elders and ancestors have done, according to each specific context, and 
not fall in the tendency of "Reinventing the Wheel" constantly. One tendency 
that many of us seem to have, in some grade at least.

Just my two cents, sharing a little bit of recent experience, flowing along 
with this open minded attitude of viewing this we're doing objectively and 
reduce our margin of error. Of course, our mistakes are valuable indeed, for 
they hold the possibility of growing, evolving and learning about this path 
of re-connecting with the nature, it's language, and the way we can correctly 
interact with it and everything that surrounds it.

Juan Manuel Burgos
Integral Permaculture Designer
Ananda AIken MultiEspacio PermaCultural
http://anandaaikenmultiespacio.wordpress.com

> From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 22:22:35 -0500
> 
> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>       permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>    2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>    3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
>       Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
>    4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
>    5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher nesbitt)
>    6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>    7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
>       <holger@tierramor.org>
> Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=UTF-8;  format="flowed"
> 
> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article 
> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited 
> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design, 
> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture " 
> was?
>   I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many 
> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture 
> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms, 
> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all 
> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many 
> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our 
> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how 
> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a 
> permaculture design . 
> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from 
> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically 
> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden, 
> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch, 
> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.? 
> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and 
> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management, 
> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the 
> yields the client seeks. 
> 
> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self 
> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our 
> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a 
> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on 
> experience . 
> 
> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work 
> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice. 
> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted 
> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or 
> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no 
> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I 
> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my 
> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great 
> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> 
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi 
> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of 
> > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in 
> > organic food production... 
> >
> > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The 
> > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) 
> > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also 
> > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC 
> > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one 
> > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since 
> > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some 
> > systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as 
> > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not 
> > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. 
> >
> > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent 
> > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios 
> > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and 
> > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", 
> > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems, 
> > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve 
> > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative 
> > power of PC concepts get grounded. 
> >
> > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >
> > Holger
> >
> >
> > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >
> > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> > > are up to
> >
> > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > www.tierramor.org
> > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > Consultas y asesor?as
> > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
>       <holger@tierramor.org>
> Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=UTF-8;  format="flowed"
> 
> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article 
> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited 
> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design, 
> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture " 
> was?
>   I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many 
> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture 
> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms, 
> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all 
> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many 
> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our 
> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how 
> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a 
> permaculture design . 
> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from 
> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically 
> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden, 
> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch, 
> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.? 
> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and 
> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management, 
> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the 
> yields the client seeks. 
> 
> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self 
> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our 
> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a 
> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on 
> experience . 
> 
> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work 
> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice. 
> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted 
> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or 
> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no 
> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I 
> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my 
> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great 
> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> 
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi 
> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of 
> > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in 
> > organic food production... 
> >
> > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The 
> > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) 
> > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also 
> > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC 
> > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one 
> > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since 
> > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some 
> > systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as 
> > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not 
> > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. 
> >
> > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent 
> > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios 
> > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and 
> > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", 
> > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems, 
> > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve 
> > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative 
> > power of PC concepts get grounded. 
> >
> > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >
> > Holger
> >
> >
> > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >
> > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> > > are up to
> >
> > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > www.tierramor.org
> > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > Consultas y asesor?as
> > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
>       Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> 
> New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature Connection,
> and Natural Health
> 
> by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> 
> in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>, Climate
> Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/>,
> Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth Ways'
> Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>, Forest
> Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>, Natural Pest
> Control <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>, Nature
> Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/>, News
> & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>, Survival
> Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> 
> July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness, Highland,
> Scotland.
> 
> This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new combination.
> It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways has
> developed over the years.
> 
> Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete when people
> are as healthy as they can be.
> 
> Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on nature.
> Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an essential first
> step.
> 
> I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high standards.
> Even  better than the last one with our new addition to our crew: Klaudia
> van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and Georgina
> Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at Anam
> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
> 
> Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of Permaculture
> Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to nature and
> learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina Richardson. She is a
> natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a permaculture diet?
> and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to experience how our
> body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for the planet
> AND good for us!
> You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging, relaxing
> and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover the
> magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
> 
> The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will be upheld by
> the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of Nature
> Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
> 
> Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
> 
> We?d love you to join us.
> 
> More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> 
> or here: 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/>
> 
> <>
> FAQ
> 
> *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> 
> If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so wonderful,
> please read on:
> 
>    - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and unusual yet
>    effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths, lifting the
>    level of the course higher, with more personal assistance. Please check 
> out
>    the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to share 
> with
>    you.
>    - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
>    surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us excellent
>    nature observation opportunities.
>    - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life can be
>    like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most balanced 
> diet
>    one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give you the
>    tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
>    - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
>    permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of how to 
> change
>    an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the 
> permaculture
>    principles you?ll learn.
>    - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a wide
>    variety of expertise available from the teachers.
>    - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours tuition
>    required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional learning
>    opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning 
> experience.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.? 
> 
> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a bad 
> article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know how to 
> garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC 
> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for dogmatism 
> and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every pc design 
> should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food forest). 
> 
> I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike Feingold's pc 
> garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me and his gardening . His 
> dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was complaining about. Maybe it 
> was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall 
> to wall garden at peak productivity.? But for the amount of time he put 
> into it, I suspect the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased 
> since Mike Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal 
> together.? 
> 
> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9 minutes 37 
> seconds. 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> 
> 
> Michael Pilarski
> 
> ?
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> 
> 
> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey 
> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>  
> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article 
> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited 
> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture Design, 
> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture " 
> was?
> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many 
> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture 
> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms, 
> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all 
> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many 
> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our 
> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how 
> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a 
> permaculture design . 
> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from 
> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically 
> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden, 
> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch, 
> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.? 
> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and 
> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management, 
> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the 
> yields the client seeks. 
> 
> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self 
> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our 
> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a 
> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on 
> experience . 
> 
> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work 
> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice. 
> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted 
> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or 
> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no 
> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I 
> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my 
> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great 
> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> 
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi 
> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of 
> > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in 
> > organic food production... 
> >
> > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The 
> > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) 
> > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also 
> > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC 
> > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one 
> > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since 
> > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some 
> > systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as 
> > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not 
> > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. 
> >
> > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent 
> > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios 
> > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and 
> > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", 
> > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems, 
> > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve 
> > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative 
> > power of PC concepts get grounded. 
> >
> > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> >
> > Holger
> >
> >
> > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >
> > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the uninformed
> > > are up to
> >
> > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > www.tierramor.org
> > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > Consultas y asesor?as
> > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net 
> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=windows-1252
> 
>  This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has been 
> managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of the oldest 
> permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC with great 
> teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
> 
> 
> 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd, 2014 
> February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> 
> Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
> 
> Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and Christopher 
> Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
> 
> Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all course 
> materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the farm, and a 
> certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of the course.
> 
> For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at 
> info(a)mmrfbz.org.
> 
> Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands on 
> experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable, 
> ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked into 
> the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from the village of 
> San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain Research Farm is a 
> working demonstration farm and registered NGO that promotes sustainable 
> agriculture, appropriate technology and food security using permaculture 
> principles and applied biodiversity.
> 
> With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an abandoned 
> cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of Central Americas 
> oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a chance to see decades worth 
> of design work applied at this venue. A fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, 
> and some footage from the 2010 PDC on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and 
> here.
> 
> Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic artist and 
> author of eleven books on energy, environment and law, and produced two 
> films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the Ecovillage Network of the 
> Americas and was active in the creation of the Global Ecovillage Network. 
> He has lectured and universities and government agencies and worked on 
> natural buildings, village infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 
> continents. He has been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
> 
> Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and teaching 
> Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade, specializing in 
> food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology, and useful plants. Her 
> practical experience has been gained from living and working in both urban 
> and rural locations. She currently teaches permaculture courses at Oregon 
> State University, Pacific University, Bastyr University, and Portland 
> Community College. Marisha works with many organizations including The City 
> Repair Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center, 
> Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds an 
> advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has participated in 
> permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky Mountains of 
> the United States to the stressed conditions of Haiti. She can be found 
> online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
> 
> Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture website. 
> Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been chronicling and 
> interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as the most pressing aspect 
> of our current multi-faceted predicament. The site integrates finance, 
> energy, environment, psychology, population and real politik in order to 
> explain why we find ourselves in a state of crisis and what we can do about 
> it. Nicole is also an international speaker on energy and global finance. 
> She has lectured in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, 
> Australia and New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety 
> of countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on 
> permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and Europe. 
> Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole was Editor of The 
> Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and finance. She also ran the 
> Agri-Energy Producers' Association
>   of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects, grid 
> connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy development. 
> While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at the Oxford Institute 
> for Energy Studies, where she specialized in nuclear safety in Eastern 
> Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted research into electricity 
> policy at the EU level. She also has significant previous experience 
> practicing as an environmental consultant. Her academic qualifications 
> include a BSc in Biology from Carleton University in Canada (where she 
> focused primarily on neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma 
> in air and water pollution control, the common professional examination in 
> law and an LLM in international law in development from the University of 
> Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top science 
> graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law school graduate 
> in 1997.
> 
> Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain Research 
> Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical agroforestry and 
> permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize since the mid 
> 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry, permaculture, renewable energy 
> through his work on the farm and elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & 
> Blacks, an organic chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related 
> to organic certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a 
> founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has worked as a 
> consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of Health, Ministry of 
> Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He represented Belize in workshops in 
> Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala. He installs photovoltaic and 
> photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in protected areas, schools, village level 
> photovoltaic water pumps, and teaches agroforestry.
> 
> A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered by Maya 
> Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne Bulford graduated 
> from Antioch College, was active in organic agriculture in Ohio, working at 
> Ohio Ecological Food and Farming Association, and died in November, 2008 of 
> cancer. She has two boys, Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, 
> Sally. Applicants must be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in 
> Belize or the communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a 
> farmer, extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact 
> Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing, and a 
> resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in this course.
> 
> *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must be paid 
> by the students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________
> Christopher Nesbitt
> 
> Maya Mountain Research Farm
> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> BELIZE, 
> Central America
> 
> Country code 501-630-4386
> 
> www.mmrfbz.org
> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,    Michael Pilarski
>       <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=UTF-8;  format="flowed"
> 
> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> 
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski 
> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> >
> > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a 
> > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know 
> > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC 
> > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for 
> > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every 
> > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food 
> > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike 
> > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me 
> > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she 
> > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. 
> > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak 
> > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect 
> > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike 
> > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.? 
> > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9 
> > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >
> >
> > Michael Pilarski
> >
> > ?
> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >
> >
> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey 
> > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >  I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article 
> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have 
> > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of 
> > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned 
> > where the "permaculture " was?
> > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many 
> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture 
> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms, 
> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses 
> > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many 
> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our 
> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how 
> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a 
> > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help 
> > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live 
> > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a 
> > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. 
> > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in 
> > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and 
> > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes 
> > time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a 
> > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article 
> > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open 
> > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience 
> > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and 
> > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill 
> > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse 
> > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by 
> > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of 
> > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught 
> > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think 
> > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981 
> > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote 
> > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it 
> > for me. Work indeed!
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi 
> > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some 
> > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience 
> > in > organic food production... >
> > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The > 
> > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) > 
> > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also > 
> > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC > 
> > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one > 
> > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since > 
> > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some > 
> > systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as 
> > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly 
> > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent 
> > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios 
> > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), 
> > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", > 
> > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems, 
> > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve > 
> > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative > 
> > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >
> > > Holger
> > >
> > >
> > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > 
> > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > >
> > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the 
> > > > uninformed
> > > > are up to
> > >
> > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > www.tierramor.org
> > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > > list maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with > 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and > 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat 
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems to have 
> interacted with only the most ignorant armchair permaculturists and not 
> looked at the positive. It's not a very balanced article and comes across 
> as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I do agree that there is dogma in 
> permaculture and there are assumptions being made by some in the movement. 
> I agree we need to document our results and am happy that activity is 
> increasing. But I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" 
> when I get such huge yields in the first year with little work from some 
> small plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch, 
> hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical 
> vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce and 
> tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very attractive. Is 
> it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my fresh food bill, but 
> I'm well aware that what I do in
>  my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost accounting and 
> measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy net profit on it for the 
> planet and my own well being however. Am I "wasting good urban farm land?" 
> My yard was Florida sugar sand, til I transformed it with the local organic 
> waste stream. Many urban plots contain depleted and compacted soil not to 
> mention heavy metals and chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing 
> greens and fruit instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens 
> daily. What would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? 
> I can buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh 
> greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban area would 
> call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term). Do I wait years 
> for them to be productive? That has never been my understanding of how to 
> design an urban forest garden, nor would it be the preferred way to do
>  commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think that 
> market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of how much 
> food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that realistically is going 
> to come from. We need hundreds of market gardens that incorporate 
> permaculture principles. ?I am doing my part to make it easier for market 
> gardeners to be successful. Meanwhile, I garden because I love it and I 
> love the yield from it. It offers balance and a regular connection with the 
> natural world.?
> 
> There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food foresters. We 
> do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?There is so much good 
> happening amongst new urban permaculturists who haven't gardened much 
> before but nonetheless are turning their lawns into abundant jungles of 
> edibles. What are they doing right? How can that be improved upon? ? It's 
> also really exciting to see the work that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your 
> book, Darrell) and other market gardeners and small farmers are doing as 
> they combine the principles of permaculture with their already substantial 
> knowledge of farming.?
> 
> Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things too - I 
> suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell them - "I will be 
> very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be sure to let me know 
> how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> ?
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey 
> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>  
> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> 
> Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski 
> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> >
> > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a 
> > bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know 
> > how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC 
> > ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for 
> > dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every 
> > pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food 
> > forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike 
> > Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me 
> > and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she 
> > was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. 
> > Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak 
> > productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect 
> > the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike 
> > Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.? 
> > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9 
> > minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> >
> >
> > Michael Pilarski
> >
> > ?
> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >
> >
> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey 
> > <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
> >? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article 
> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have 
> > visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of 
> > Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned 
> > where the "permaculture " was?
> > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many 
> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture 
> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms, 
> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses 
> > all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many 
> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our 
> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how 
> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a 
> > permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help 
> > clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live 
> > a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a 
> > forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. 
> > Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in 
> > different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and 
> > where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes 
> > time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a 
> > goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article 
> > in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open 
> > mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience 
> > the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and 
> > comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill 
> > Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse 
> > his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by 
> > Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of 
> > permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught 
> > permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think 
> > mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981 
> > and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote 
> > in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it 
> > for me. Work indeed!
> >
> > Darrell E. Frey
> > Three Sisters Farm
> > defrey@bioshelter.com
> > www.bioshelter.com
> >
> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> > Publishing, 2011
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi 
> > <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > > critical with some expressions of PC-
> > > the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some 
> > of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience 
> > in > organic food production... >
> > > Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The > 
> > designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) > 
> > were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also > 
> > helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC > 
> > illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one > 
> > after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since > 
> > this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some > 
> > systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as 
> > > described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly 
> > not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > > Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent 
> > > example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios 
> > > group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), 
> > and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", > 
> > establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems, 
> > > producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve > 
> > over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative > 
> > power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > > saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >
> > > Holger
> > >
> > >
> > > El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > > > The Trouble with Permaculture
> > > > 
> > http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > > >
> > > > a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the 
> > > > uninformed
> > > > are up to
> > >
> > > -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
> > > TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > > www.tierramor.org
> > > Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > > Consultas y asesor?as
> > > Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >
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> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
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> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat 
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> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
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> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> > integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> > enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> 
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> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
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> ------------------------------
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> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
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> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> *********************************************