permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

Steve,

I am curious what you are basing your judgements on?  The statement that many 
pdc graduates are not getting it. The course graduates that you see in New 
Zealand?  Where else are you coming into contact with pdc course graduates 
from other countries? Are you judging courses and people that you have never 
met? 


Granted that not every person from a pdc comes away with a clear 
understanding of the main principles, etc.  Not that they aren't offered the 
information but that some people don't get it even if served up on a silver 
spoon.  


I personally cross paths with hundreds of pdc graduates here in the USA.  I 
would say that almost every pdc graduate I meet does "get it" . The principes 
and ethics I mean. Also they do get the pc methodology.  PC does have a 
methodology in case you haven't noticed.  


I agree with April, Darren Doherty and others who have stated on this list 
serve that permaculture design courses can be taught a number of ways and 
that each has a place. Residential intensives, weekend courses and on-line 
courses.  I used to be very biased myself on residential courses and thought 
that weekend courses could not be as good.  But in the last two years I have 
taught two weekend pdcs and was very satisfied with the outcome (and so were 
the students).  So now I will eat my hat and say that weekend courses can be 
very good and the students can gell as a team. There certainly can be weekend 
pdcs that turn out a better product than some of the residential pdcs.

We all know that pdcs vary a lot in quality.  There are poor ones, mediocre 
ones, good ones and outstanding ones.  Mostly these are dependent on the 
teacher(s). 

I would say that this applies to residentials, weekend and on-line courses.  
Prospective students should definitely do their research. Buyer beware.  From 
my experience in the USA there aren't that many poor teachers offerings pdcs 
and there are a lot of good and exceptional ones. The latter tend to get the 
bigger student turnouts because of their good reputation.  


How do we (the pc movement) do better?  I think that going to pc convergences 
where we can rub elbows, meet each other, sample each others' presentations, 
and talk about each other is a big part of our internal quality control.  I 
highly recommend that pdc teachers and would-be teachers (and would-be 
students) attend pc gatherings in their region and in other regions.


Remembering our time in New Zealand together. Glad you are still in the 
trenches, 


Gradual progress, 


Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds



________________________________
 From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:31 AM
Subject: [permaculture] what's the big deal?
 

what's the big deal?....is part of the real question and the problem...the
reality is that many graduates of whatever course or learning in
Permaculture still don't get it....that PC is a design philosophy based on
principles. It is not a set of recipes nor a methodology...that is the big
deal. So those of us who give a damn rather than putting our ego and
pockets first need to continually ask what we are offering those in search
of solutions that what is delivered is continually strengthened rather than
what is the case now ..serious weakening...that is the big deal...and what
we need is to continually question our own integrity. How it is delivered
is by in large irrelevant because of the many divergent ways of learning.
However the original PDC of 72 hr minimum covering every aspect of the
original curriculum must be the minimum expectation beyond the great array
of introduction, lectures, talks, weekends etc etc. Our challenge is to
strengthen the curriculum and ensure all elements are being covered
adequately by qualified practitioners....otherwise we continue to weaken
the entire doctrine....then what is the outcome ? we already see this.
..Steve Hart


On 11 June 2013 12:57, Heenan Doherty <heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:

> G'day,
>
> Well said April and after finally dipping our toe into these waters though
> our eHD <http://www.heenandoherty.com/eHD> service we are finding that
> there are many people and indeed subjects that are dealt with by on-line
> delivery.
>
> As April said, as long as people are transparent about what they are
> delivering and prospective attendees to e-learning know the difference
> between e-learning and 'analogue' learning and the limitations to both then
> what's the big deal?
>
>
> Yours & Growing,
>
> Lisa Heenan & Darren J. Doherty
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *LATEST NEWS*
> *HD Newsletter<
> http://www.heenandoherty.com/CampaignProcess.aspx?A=View&Data=VCasKU5V9NFZc7xyqWjMOw%3D%3D
> >
> *
> *NEW!! RAD Course (10
> days)<http://www.heenandoherty.com/events/rad_muskerry-2013> Muskerry
> VIC AU May 11-20*
> *HD Shed - AFFORDABLE ElectricNet Fencing &
> Energisers<http://www.heenandoherty.com/support-and-resources>
> **  *
> *Darren J Doherty 'Regen10' Introduction
> (18min**s)*<http://youtu.be/MvVlzUv8D5U>
>
> * <http://www.heenandoherty.com>
> *
> **
>
> *HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd. (AU)*
> *ACN 159 903 483 ABN 80 159 903 483*
> *International Education
> *Regenerative Media & Products
> *Broadacre Design & Development
> *International Agents for Mr. Joel Salatin <http://polyfacefarms.com/>,
> Mr.
> Daniel Salatin <
> http://www.polyfacefarms.com/speaking-protocol/daniels-bio/>
>  & Mr. Eugenio Gras <http://mashumus.com/>.
>
> <http://www.facebook.com/HeenanDohertyPL><
> https://twitter.com/#!/heenandoherty>
>
> *Darren J. Doherty,*
> Director, HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd.
>
> Web <http://www.heenandoherty.com>
> <http://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz>
> PhotoLog <http://picasaweb.google.com/heenandoherty>
> Darren J. Doherty
> CV<https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxf-Mzo0q-Zbd2NhbXZsbWhDcmM/edit>
>
> HeenanDoherty P/L Trading
> Conditions<
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pR7x3CS-UmQ_Ca8s9JbvCCXYu_tQnxMicPfmWjauFys/edit
> >
> HeenanDoherty Blog <http://www.heenandoherty.com/_blog/Latest_News>
>
> *HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd. Brands:*
> Regenerative Agriculture
> *www.HDShed.com <http://www.HeenanDoherty.com>
> *www.HDWorldEvents.com <http://www.heenandoherty.com/event-test>
> RegenAG® (USA)
> skype: heenandoherty
> phone (AU): +61 431 444 836
> phone (UK): +44 (0) 7742 189 474
> phone (US): +1 917 254 1736
>
> *HeenanDoherty Provider & RegenAG International Links:*
> <http://agriculturaregenerativaiberica.wordpress.com/>
>
> <http://www.regenag.co.uk/>
>
> *Other Great Regenerative Agriculture Links:*
> *
> *
> *www.RegenAG.com.au <http://www.regenag.com.au/>*
> *www.MasHumus.com <http://www.mashumus.com/>*
> *www.RMSGadzia.com <http://www.rmsgadzia.com/>*
> *www.PolyfaceFarms.com <http://www.polyfacefarms.com/>*
> *www.SavoryInstitute.org <http://www.savoryinstitute.org/>*
> *www.HolisticManagement.org <http://www.holisticmanagement.org/>*
> *
> *
>
> ___________________
>
> Note: If you do not wish to be an addressee on the HeenanDoherty database
> then please advise us & you will be removed from future dispatches.....
>
> This message is only for the use of the addressee. The contents of this
> email (including attachments) may be privileged and confidential. Any legal
> privilege is not waived by mistaken delivery. If you are not the intended
> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email or attachments
> to the intended recipient please notify the sender by return email or by
> telephone on +61 (0) 431 444 836 and purge the message stored in any
> electronic medium.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
> april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
>
> > There are many people out there wanting to learn about permaculture and
> > they are from an amazing array of learning habits and cultures.
> > As long as the principles and objectives are clear, the methods will
> > work for different participants.
> > After teaching online for 20 years I can confidently say Ihave had to
> > mop up after a lot of other online teachers to
> > keep the integrity of the service respectful. so even if the delivery
> > method is useful for certain participants, the methods of some teachers
> > can be messy.
> > --
> >
> > *April S-Kelly*
> >
> > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia
> > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > Google+: April Sampson-Kelly
> > We are a carbon-neutral office. web: http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > old-fashioned paper.*
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>



-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>From stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 14:20:52 2013
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Hi Skeeeta....I think you answered most of your questioning yourself. Is it
natural succession that the weeds are overtaken by the pioneers ? I by in
large agree with all you say and others too but we still need to be
vigilant and have valued concern to continually evolve rigour,
strengthening above weakening. And, have the courage to stand up and say so.

I express my concern of "don't get it" by the many graduates I meet at
conferences and  similar events as well as teachers I rub shoulders with.
Although I am presently back in NZ right now I have spent most of the past
15 yrs in other countries where I constantly see this issue. so lets keep
vigilant...hope to rub shoulders with you sooon...howz the Nth American
Conference shapin up ? got a venue and time yet ? Steve


On 12 June 2013 06:06, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> I am curious what you are basing your judgements on?  The statement that
> many pdc graduates are not getting it. The course graduates that you see in
> New Zealand?  Where else are you coming into contact with pdc course
> graduates from other countries? Are you judging courses and people that you
> have never met?
>
>
> Granted that not every person from a pdc comes away with a clear
> understanding of the main principles, etc.  Not that they aren't offered
> the information but that some people don't get it even if served up on a
> silver spoon.
>
>
> I personally cross paths with hundreds of pdc graduates here in the USA.
> I would say that almost every pdc graduate I meet does "get it" . The
> principes and ethics I mean. Also they do get the pc methodology.  PC does
> have a methodology in case you haven't noticed.
>
>
> I agree with April, Darren Doherty and others who have stated on this list
> serve that permaculture design courses can be taught a number of ways and
> that each has a place. Residential intensives, weekend courses and on-line
> courses.  I used to be very biased myself on residential courses and
> thought that weekend courses could not be as good.  But in the last two
> years I have taught two weekend pdcs and was very satisfied with the
> outcome (and so were the students).  So now I will eat my hat and say that
> weekend courses can be very good and the students can gell as a team. There
> certainly can be weekend pdcs that turn out a better product than some of
> the residential pdcs.
>
> We all know that pdcs vary a lot in quality.  There are poor ones,
> mediocre ones, good ones and outstanding ones.  Mostly these are dependent
> on the teacher(s).
>
> I would say that this applies to residentials, weekend and on-line
> courses.  Prospective students should definitely do their research. Buyer
> beware.  From my experience in the USA there aren't that many poor teachers
> offerings pdcs and there are a lot of good and exceptional ones. The latter
> tend to get the bigger student turnouts because of their good reputation.
>
>
> How do we (the pc movement) do better?  I think that going to pc
> convergences where we can rub elbows, meet each other, sample each others'
> presentations, and talk about each other is a big part of our internal
> quality control.  I highly recommend that pdc teachers and would-be
> teachers (and would-be students) attend pc gatherings in their region and
> in other regions.
>
>
> Remembering our time in New Zealand together. Glad you are still in the
> trenches,
>
>
> Gradual progress,
>
>
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:31 AM
> Subject: [permaculture] what's the big deal?
>
>
> what's the big deal?....is part of the real question and the problem...the
> reality is that many graduates of whatever course or learning in
> Permaculture still don't get it....that PC is a design philosophy based on
> principles. It is not a set of recipes nor a methodology...that is the big
> deal. So those of us who give a damn rather than putting our ego and
> pockets first need to continually ask what we are offering those in search
> of solutions that what is delivered is continually strengthened rather than
> what is the case now ..serious weakening...that is the big deal...and what
> we need is to continually question our own integrity. How it is delivered
> is by in large irrelevant because of the many divergent ways of learning.
> However the original PDC of 72 hr minimum covering every aspect of the
> original curriculum must be the minimum expectation beyond the great array
> of introduction, lectures, talks, weekends etc etc. Our challenge is to
> strengthen the curriculum and ensure all elements are being covered
> adequately by qualified practitioners....otherwise we continue to weaken
> the entire doctrine....then what is the outcome ? we already see this.
> ..Steve Hart
>
>
> On 11 June 2013 12:57, Heenan Doherty <heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > G'day,
> >
> > Well said April and after finally dipping our toe into these waters
> though
> > our eHD <http://www.heenandoherty.com/eHD> service we are finding that
> > there are many people and indeed subjects that are dealt with by on-line
> > delivery.
> >
> > As April said, as long as people are transparent about what they are
> > delivering and prospective attendees to e-learning know the difference
> > between e-learning and 'analogue' learning and the limitations to both
> then
> > what's the big deal?
> >
> >
> > Yours & Growing,
> >
> > Lisa Heenan & Darren J. Doherty
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *LATEST NEWS*
> > *HD Newsletter<
> >
> http://www.heenandoherty.com/CampaignProcess.aspx?A=View&Data=VCasKU5V9NFZc7xyqWjMOw%3D%3D
> > >
> > *
> > *NEW!! RAD Course (10
> > days)<http://www.heenandoherty.com/events/rad_muskerry-2013> Muskerry
> > VIC AU May 11-20*
> > *HD Shed - AFFORDABLE ElectricNet Fencing &
> > Energisers<http://www.heenandoherty.com/support-and-resources>
> > **  *
> > *Darren J Doherty 'Regen10' Introduction
> > (18min**s)*<http://youtu.be/MvVlzUv8D5U>
> >
> > * <http://www.heenandoherty.com>
> > *
> > **
> >
> > *HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd. (AU)*
> > *ACN 159 903 483 ABN 80 159 903 483*
> > *International Education
> > *Regenerative Media & Products
> > *Broadacre Design & Development
> > *International Agents for Mr. Joel Salatin <http://polyfacefarms.com/>,
> > Mr.
> > Daniel Salatin <
> > http://www.polyfacefarms.com/speaking-protocol/daniels-bio/>
> >  & Mr. Eugenio Gras <http://mashumus.com/>.
> >
> > <http://www.facebook.com/HeenanDohertyPL><
> > https://twitter.com/#!/heenandoherty>
> >
> > *Darren J. Doherty,*
> > Director, HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd.
> >
> > Web <http://www.heenandoherty.com>
> > <http://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz>
> > PhotoLog <http://picasaweb.google.com/heenandoherty>
> > Darren J. Doherty
> > CV<https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxf-Mzo0q-Zbd2NhbXZsbWhDcmM/edit>
> >
> > HeenanDoherty P/L Trading
> > Conditions<
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pR7x3CS-UmQ_Ca8s9JbvCCXYu_tQnxMicPfmWjauFys/edit
> > >
> > HeenanDoherty Blog <http://www.heenandoherty.com/_blog/Latest_News>
> >
> > *HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd. Brands:*
> > Regenerative Agriculture
> > *www.HDShed.com <http://www.HeenanDoherty.com>
> > *www.HDWorldEvents.com <http://www.heenandoherty.com/event-test>
> > RegenAG® (USA)
> > skype: heenandoherty
> > phone (AU): +61 431 444 836
> > phone (UK): +44 (0) 7742 189 474
> > phone (US): +1 917 254 1736
> >
> > *HeenanDoherty Provider & RegenAG International Links:*
> > <http://agriculturaregenerativaiberica.wordpress.com/>
> >
> > <http://www.regenag.co.uk/>
> >
> > *Other Great Regenerative Agriculture Links:*
> > *
> > *
> > *www.RegenAG.com.au <http://www.regenag.com.au/>*
> > *www.MasHumus.com <http://www.mashumus.com/>*
> > *www.RMSGadzia.com <http://www.rmsgadzia.com/>*
> > *www.PolyfaceFarms.com <http://www.polyfacefarms.com/>*
> > *www.SavoryInstitute.org <http://www.savoryinstitute.org/>*
> > *www.HolisticManagement.org <http://www.holisticmanagement.org/>*
> > *
> > *
> >
> > ___________________
> >
> > Note: If you do not wish to be an addressee on the HeenanDoherty database
> > then please advise us & you will be removed from future dispatches.....
> >
> > This message is only for the use of the addressee. The contents of this
> > email (including attachments) may be privileged and confidential. Any
> legal
> > privilege is not waived by mistaken delivery. If you are not the intended
> > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email or
> attachments
> > to the intended recipient please notify the sender by return email or by
> > telephone on +61 (0) 431 444 836 and purge the message stored in any
> > electronic medium.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
> > april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There are many people out there wanting to learn about permaculture and
> > > they are from an amazing array of learning habits and cultures.
> > > As long as the principles and objectives are clear, the methods will
> > > work for different participants.
> > > After teaching online for 20 years I can confidently say Ihave had to
> > > mop up after a lot of other online teachers to
> > > keep the integrity of the service respectful. so even if the delivery
> > > method is useful for certain participants, the methods of some teachers
> > > can be messy.
> > > --
> > >
> > > *April S-Kelly*
> > >
> > > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
> Australia
> > > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > > Google+: April Sampson-Kelly
> > > We are a carbon-neutral office. web:
> http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > > old-fashioned paper.*
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > > maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
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-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart