permaculture

[Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>]

Interesting conversation! I agree with what Skeeter is saying about the
high quality of Permaculture education that I witness among established
teachers here in the Western US, and high caliber of students coming out of
ongoing and time tested trainings. I get to sample the abilities of
students from other teacher's courses by teaching advanced courses, where I
get a mix of students from other teachers.

But every class puts the emphasis on different parts of the curriculum.
Just here in Western Oregon I can think of courses that are very heavy on
appropriate technology, because they're taught at a center focussed on
that, very urban design heavy courses because they're taught in a Portland
neighborhood, very mapping and presentation skills heavy because they're at
a university with geography and agriculture students, or farm scale and
soils  heavy because they're taught on a working farm.

Sometimes I get students from other teachers who can't read a contour map,
or don't really understand the movement of the sun in the sky. I don't
really fault those teachers  that they don't put the focus on ensuring that
every single student has total competency in subjects I feel important.
Maybe those same students understand the social dynamics of village design
far better than my students. And not every student possesses the same
capacities to start with. For some students it's an immense challenge to
understand basic landforms, for others it's in their blood.

Also, if not used and reinforced, some skills and understanding diminish
over time. Maybe a lot of time has passed. Not every student will continue
the thread of learning, study and practice on their own after a PDC. You
really need to assess someone's understanding of the curriculum on an
individual basis based on their situation and capacities to judge the
quality of the teacher.

In my limited experience, meeting PDC graduates who don't possess
Permaculture competency is definitely the exception!

Take care,
Andrew


On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Skeeeta....I think you answered most of your questioning yourself. Is it
> natural succession that the weeds are overtaken by the pioneers ? I by in
> large agree with all you say and others too but we still need to be
> vigilant and have valued concern to continually evolve rigour,
> strengthening above weakening. And, have the courage to stand up and say
> so.
>
> I express my concern of "don't get it" by the many graduates I meet at
> conferences and  similar events as well as teachers I rub shoulders with.
> Although I am presently back in NZ right now I have spent most of the past
> 15 yrs in other countries where I constantly see this issue. so lets keep
> vigilant...hope to rub shoulders with you sooon...howz the Nth American
> Conference shapin up ? got a venue and time yet ? Steve
>
>
> On 12 June 2013 06:06, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > I am curious what you are basing your judgements on?  The statement that
> > many pdc graduates are not getting it. The course graduates that you see
> in
> > New Zealand?  Where else are you coming into contact with pdc course
> > graduates from other countries? Are you judging courses and people that
> you
> > have never met?
> >
> >
> > Granted that not every person from a pdc comes away with a clear
> > understanding of the main principles, etc.  Not that they aren't offered
> > the information but that some people don't get it even if served up on a
> > silver spoon.
> >
> >
> > I personally cross paths with hundreds of pdc graduates here in the USA.
> > I would say that almost every pdc graduate I meet does "get it" . The
> > principes and ethics I mean. Also they do get the pc methodology.  PC
> does
> > have a methodology in case you haven't noticed.
> >
> >
> > I agree with April, Darren Doherty and others who have stated on this
> list
> > serve that permaculture design courses can be taught a number of ways and
> > that each has a place. Residential intensives, weekend courses and
> on-line
> > courses.  I used to be very biased myself on residential courses and
> > thought that weekend courses could not be as good.  But in the last two
> > years I have taught two weekend pdcs and was very satisfied with the
> > outcome (and so were the students).  So now I will eat my hat and say
> that
> > weekend courses can be very good and the students can gell as a team.
> There
> > certainly can be weekend pdcs that turn out a better product than some of
> > the residential pdcs.
> >
> > We all know that pdcs vary a lot in quality.  There are poor ones,
> > mediocre ones, good ones and outstanding ones.  Mostly these are
> dependent
> > on the teacher(s).
> >
> > I would say that this applies to residentials, weekend and on-line
> > courses.  Prospective students should definitely do their research. Buyer
> > beware.  From my experience in the USA there aren't that many poor
> teachers
> > offerings pdcs and there are a lot of good and exceptional ones. The
> latter
> > tend to get the bigger student turnouts because of their good reputation.
> >
> >
> > How do we (the pc movement) do better?  I think that going to pc
> > convergences where we can rub elbows, meet each other, sample each
> others'
> > presentations, and talk about each other is a big part of our internal
> > quality control.  I highly recommend that pdc teachers and would-be
> > teachers (and would-be students) attend pc gatherings in their region and
> > in other regions.
> >
> >
> > Remembering our time in New Zealand together. Glad you are still in the
> > trenches,
> >
> >
> > Gradual progress,
> >
> >
> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:31 AM
> > Subject: [permaculture] what's the big deal?
> >
> >
> > what's the big deal?....is part of the real question and the
> problem...the
> > reality is that many graduates of whatever course or learning in
> > Permaculture still don't get it....that PC is a design philosophy based
> on
> > principles. It is not a set of recipes nor a methodology...that is the
> big
> > deal. So those of us who give a damn rather than putting our ego and
> > pockets first need to continually ask what we are offering those in
> search
> > of solutions that what is delivered is continually strengthened rather
> than
> > what is the case now ..serious weakening...that is the big deal...and
> what
> > we need is to continually question our own integrity. How it is delivered
> > is by in large irrelevant because of the many divergent ways of learning.
> > However the original PDC of 72 hr minimum covering every aspect of the
> > original curriculum must be the minimum expectation beyond the great
> array
> > of introduction, lectures, talks, weekends etc etc. Our challenge is to
> > strengthen the curriculum and ensure all elements are being covered
> > adequately by qualified practitioners....otherwise we continue to weaken
> > the entire doctrine....then what is the outcome ? we already see this.
> > ..Steve Hart
> >
> >
> > On 11 June 2013 12:57, Heenan Doherty <heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > Well said April and after finally dipping our toe into these waters
> > though
> > > our eHD <http://www.heenandoherty.com/eHD> service we are finding that
> > > there are many people and indeed subjects that are dealt with by
> on-line
> > > delivery.
> > >
> > > As April said, as long as people are transparent about what they are
> > > delivering and prospective attendees to e-learning know the difference
> > > between e-learning and 'analogue' learning and the limitations to both
> > then
> > > what's the big deal?
> > >
> > >
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> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
> > > april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > There are many people out there wanting to learn about permaculture
> and
> > > > they are from an amazing array of learning habits and cultures.
> > > > As long as the principles and objectives are clear, the methods will
> > > > work for different participants.
> > > > After teaching online for 20 years I can confidently say Ihave had to
> > > > mop up after a lot of other online teachers to
> > > > keep the integrity of the service respectful. so even if the delivery
> > > > method is useful for certain participants, the methods of some
> teachers
> > > > can be messy.
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *April S-Kelly*
> > > >
> > > > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > > > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
> > Australia
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> > > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kia ora
> >
> > [image: Picture]
> > *Steve Hart*
> > Ecology Architect
> > skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
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>



-- 
Andrew Millison
(541) 752-9118
www.beaverstatepermaculture.com