permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

One thing here is that tires float like bricks. I actually tried it out 
today. They can never be used for a purpose of preventing huricanes.
When I first read about the idea many years ago, talk was about a huge, 
floating tube with a diameter of maybe 20 meters and a wall height of more 
than a meter. It was the idea that splash and waves would get over the tube 
and then would through hydrostatic pressure be pushed through a thin sheet 
of over a hundred meters long downwards. Not good as Toby explained but 
nothing to do with car tires. They don't float even.
john

> Lol, Toby. I wish we could hire a few hundred people just to go around 
> patiently explaining this type of thing to people who dream up these 
> depraved ideas.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Highest use for tires?
>
> I'd be very careful about large scale mixing of warm ocean water with 
> deeper, cooler water. Those of us old enough to remember the Permian 
> Extinction, about 250 million years ago, know that a big factor in its 
> wiping out 95% of all species and about 85% of all life was the warming of 
> deeper ocean waters. Warm water can't hold as much oxygen as cold, so 
> shoving warm water deep into the ocean will likely starve a lot of living 
> creatures of oxygen. If we do it on a scale large enough to stop 
> hurricanes, that scale will have other effects. In the Permian, the 
> climate warmed enough to make the seas anoxic, and since most of life was 
> in the sea, most of it died.
>
> So let's not do this.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 7:21 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:
>
> > This is one of those "We must be dominant over and defeat nature - we are 
> > at war" solutions. This person likely has no clue of the benefits that 
> > hurricanes bring to large swaths of this country. Stopping hurricanes 
> > with tires might turn the SE US into a desert! We get significant amounts 
> > of aquifer recharge and rain from hurricanes and tropical storms. Tampa 
> > Bay would not support 3 million people without tropical storm and summer 
> > storm recharge of aquifers, reservoirs and lakes. Some people always want 
> > to control the weather, instead of confronting that maybe putting their 
> > multimillion dollar house right ON the beach in the path of hurricanes is 
> > not the best move. And maybe if they still want to do that, the need to 
> > be prepared to lose the buildings, so that the rest of us still have 
> > rivers flowing in the SE. There are some people out there who actually do 
> > have that attitude - I've met quite a few of them down here in hurricane 
> > country. "Yeah, I
> live
> > on the beach and sooner or later a hurricane will probably wipe out my 
> > house, but I'm really enjoying it meantime." That is a relatively healthy 
> > relationship with hurricanes.
> >
> > Koreen Brennan
> >
> > www.growpermaculture.com
> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: dylanford <dylanford@optonline.net>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 8:44 AM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: Highest use for tires?
> >
> > Folks. Though this Guardian article will not be of use to anyone seeking 
> > an immediate application for discarded auto tires, I thought it might be 
> > of general interest to the permaculture community. dylan
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/nov/04/stephen-salter-tyre-hurricane-sandy
> > The man who would stop hurricanes with car tyres
> > Devastating tropical storms of the kind that battered the US last week 
> > could be weakened and rendered less deadly using a simple and cheap 
> > technology based on a surprising component – old car tyres.
> > One of Britain's leading marine engineers, Stephen Salter, emeritus 
> > professor of engineering design at Edinburgh university and a global 
> > pioneer of wave power research, has patented with Microsoft billionaires 
> > Bill Gates and Nathan Myhrvold the idea of using thousands of tyres 
> > lashed together to support giant plastic tubes which extend 100m deep 
> > into the ocean.
> >
> > Wave action on the ocean surface would force warm surface water down into 
> > the deeper ocean. If non-return valves were used, he says, the result 
> > would be to mix the waters and cool the surface temperature of the ocean 
> > to under 26.5C, the critical temperature at which hurricanes form.
> >
> > According to Salter, who has written to the government's chief scientific 
> > officer setting out his scheme, harnessing energy from the waves to cool 
> > the surface temperature of the ocean makes ecological sense. The 
> > naturally working pumps would be located in "hurricane alley", the warm 
> > corridor in the Atlantic through which the most damaging storms typically 
> > develop and pass.
> >
> > Salter claims that the hydrological problems have been solved but that 
> > research funding is urgently needed. "If you can cool the sea surface, 
> > you would calm the hurricanes. I estimate you would need about 150-450 of 
> > these structures. They would drift around and send out radar signals so 
> > that no one would collide with them," he said.
> >
> > The idea of what is now known as the "Salter Sink" was first presented to 
> > the US government in 2007 at a post-Katrina US Homeland Security meeting 
> > on hurricane suppression. It was picked up and developed by Intellectual 
> > Ventures, a Seattle-based new tech company run by Myhrvold and backed by 
> > Gates which buys and licenses patents and inventions.
> >
> > "The Salter Sink concept is delightfully simple and singularly 
> > gargantuan," the company said in a statement posted on its website . "It 
> > has captured our imagination here in the lab. We have done some 
> > experiments and computational modelling work to validate this idea, but a 
> > lot more research needs to be done by experts in related fields such as 
> > climate science and oceanography, and we need partners to pursue the 
> > project further."
> >
> > Research into hurricane suppression is considered urgent by the US 
> > government because seven of the 10 costliest hurricanes to hit the United 
> > States have struck since 2004. Hurricane Sandy has caused approximately 
> > $30bn of damage, taking the economic costs of hurricanes in the US and 
> > Caribbean since 2002 to more than $200bn.
> >
> > Salter's research is unlikely to be funded by the British government, 
> > which is traditionally shy of paying for "blue sky" marine technologies, 
> > and Salter's own wave devices in particular.
> >
> > In 1982 Salter invented the idea of a mechanical "duck" which bobbed on 
> > the ocean and generated electricity. But the government shut down the UK 
> > Wave Energy programme, arguing that his invention would be too expensive 
> > to develop further.
> >
> > It emerged later that civil servants in the nuclear power division of the 
> > energy department had "miscalculated" by a factor of 10 the estimated 
> > cost of energy production, possibly setting back British wave energy 
> > research by 20 years.
> >
> > Salter, with John Lathan of the US National Centre for Atmospheric 
> > Research, has also developed the idea of using hundreds of ships spraying 
> > very fine seawater droplets high into the sky to reflect sunlight and 
> > thus counter global warming and suppress hurricanes. The UK government 
> > was asked to assess the technology research, but declined to back it 
> > financially.
> >
> > Hurricane suppression ideas go back more than 100 years but attempts have 
> > mostly proved tragicomic, said Jim Fleming, author of a new history of 
> > geo-engineering. Ideas have included setting up rows of cannon on the 
> > Florida coast to shoot them down; using laser beams from space; and 
> > "seeding" them with silver iodide.
> >
> > The results have proved at best uncertain. One hurricane "manipulated" by 
> > the US government in the 1940s veered off course and struck Georgia, 
> > causing $20m of damage and killing two people. In 1962, just after the 
> > Cuban missile crisis, Fidel Castro complained that the US had "modified" 
> > a hurricane which, remarkably, lingered over the island for four days 
> > after exercising a U-turn.
> >
> > Many countries, including the US and Russia, have tried to militarise 
> > weather research, trying to divert hurricanes and storms into the path of 
> > their enemies.
> >
> > Salter was inspired to invent his device after seeing the damage wrought 
> > by Katrina.
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