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  • From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] this business of rain water
  • Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:19:48 -0700 (PDT)

Does anybody know what the downstream impacts actually were or what the
specific concerns are in that particular location? Has there been adverse
impacts from damming in that watershed? He had dams there for a while; were
they doing any actual damage that was documented? (I understand that
sometimes it's hard to document until it is "too late" and much damage has
been done) 

Sometimes, things get personal and the law uses its leverage to get even with
someone. Was anything like that happening here, I wonder? This guy went to
jail for doing this. That seems a bit extreme, but I read that he had
continued to ignore attempts to get him to stop.What would shut down the
rumor line on this faster than anything would be if there was some specifics
on the damage those lakes could do or were doing to that specific area. 


 



________________________________
From: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] this business of rain water

Excellent reply, Tony!
I recall the discussion but wasn't sure how to find it.
Thanks for reiterating and embellishing these points.
The thing that struck me about this was that it is an obvious need of people
to protect their communal water supply.
There would be a lot of concern if that was challenged!  So, this was
barking up the wrong tree as if just for the sake of barking.
Definitely a candidate for the nomer 'fear mongering'.
Can I quote you? With or without credit?
Thanks again.
Be well.
Frances

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Hemenway
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:59 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] this business of rain water



On Oct 26, 2012, at 9:58 PM, Frances and David wrote:

> http://worldtruth.tv/oregon-claims-state-ownership-over-all-rainwater/
> it’s coming up again
> and I’m wondering
> is this really as scary as it is made to look?

Not to worry. Do some Googling about this  if you want to get the facts. The
guy was illegally and unwisely diverting and damming streams, not catching
rain. A couple of paranoid "government is always evil" bloggers completely
distorted what had happened. Most of what is in this article is untrue: for
example, if you pave an area over a certain small size (varies by county),
you must mitigate the runoff, get a permit, and deal properly with its
impact on stream flow, contrary to what the article says. And the quoted
state official does not say they own the rain or own the water, he says they
regulate how water is handled by landowners--which means once it hits the
ground and enters the surface and groundwater cycles. Big difference.

Oregon allows rainwater harvesting without a permit in most circumstances.
Once rain lands on the ground it is considered a common, regulated
resource--like forests on public land--and cannot be held in quantity
without a permit (garden ponds excepted), though it can be drained or sunk
with swales without a permit in many cases. Overland flow (not rain!) cannot
diverted from downstream--and from other users, and fish, and
wetlands--without having your system okayed, which makes sense to me. Too
many badly designed ponds have done too much damage to watercourses and
wildlife, hence they tightened the permit process a while back.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com

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JOCZWfoCL+q0HhrOipXd2eQbR5rZUUnkzwSubject: Re: [permaculture] this
business of rain water
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On Oct 27, 2012, at 4:19 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:

> Does anybody know what the downstream impacts actually were or what the
> specific concerns are in that particular location?

I think the issue was more that he was violating the water rights of
downstream landowners and reducing streamflow, which will affect fish and
wildlife. He was impounding significant quantities of surface runoff and
using it to irrigate, which means some of it will evaporate and some of it
will not return to the drainages it was taken from for some time or distance.
I don't think the regulators have the manpower to assess harm; they just
investigate violations of the law. It would be nice, I agree, if the
regulators could look at every case, assess whether there was actual harm or
even significant streamflow alteration, and then decide whether to issue a
citation. And I know that sometimes that happens. But mostly it's "you've
been warned of your code violation, you didn't stop, so we're gonna bust
you." When I lived in Oregon I saw some really stupid ponds and failed dams,
and saw people taking lots of water illegally that was going to cause harm
downstream, so there is some justification for a flat policy.

Water rights in the US West have been a fighting issue since the Old World
got here (and maybe before that). It comes with a history of murder,
vandalism, house-burnings, and corruption. The state got involved to
eliminate vigilantism and apply the rules more even-handedly rather than let
the most powerful owners get all the water (though that still happens), and
they're serious about it. So anyone dumb enough to repeatedly, willfully
violate water rights--like that guy--is being very pattern illiterate (and
I'll bet he pissed off some neighbor).

I'd love to be able to put in ponds without an onerous permit process, but
the former free-for-all didn't work, so we're stuck with the typical,
bureaucratic solution, if you can call it that. If we don't act wisely, we
end up with rules.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


>
> Has there been adverse impacts from damming in that watershed? He had dams
> there for a while; were they doing any actual damage that was documented?
> (I understand that sometimes it's hard to document until it is "too late"
> and much damage has been done)
>
> Sometimes, things get personal and the law uses its leverage to get even
> with someone. Was anything like that happening here, I wonder? This guy
> went to jail for doing this. That seems a bit extreme, but I read that he
> had continued to ignore attempts to get him to stop.What would shut down
> the rumor line on this faster than anything would be if there was some
> specifics on the damage those lakes could do or were doing to that specific
> area.
>
> K
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] this business of rain water
>
> Excellent reply, Tony!
> I recall the discussion but wasn't sure how to find it.
> Thanks for reiterating and embellishing these points.
> The thing that struck me about this was that it is an obvious need of
> people
> to protect their communal water supply.
> There would be a lot of concern if that was challenged! So, this was
> barking up the wrong tree as if just for the sake of barking.
> Definitely a candidate for the nomer 'fear mongering'.
> Can I quote you? With or without credit?
> Thanks again.
> Be well.
> Frances
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:59 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] this business of rain water
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2012, at 9:58 PM, Frances and David wrote:
>
>> http://worldtruth.tv/oregon-claims-state-ownership-over-all-rainwater/
>> it�s coming up again
>> and I�m wondering
>> is this really as scary as it is made to look?
>
> Not to worry. Do some Googling about this if you want to get the facts.
> The
> guy was illegally and unwisely diverting and damming streams, not catching
> rain. A couple of paranoid "government is always evil" bloggers completely
> distorted what had happened. Most of what is in this article is untrue: for
> example, if you pave an area over a certain small size (varies by county),
> you must mitigate the runoff, get a permit, and deal properly with its
> impact on stream flow, contrary to what the article says. And the quoted
> state official does not say they own the rain or own the water, he says
> they
> regulate how water is handled by landowners--which means once it hits the
> ground and enters the surface and groundwater cycles. Big difference.
>
> Oregon allows rainwater harvesting without a permit in most circumstances.
> Once rain lands on the ground it is considered a common, regulated
> resource--like forests on public land--and cannot be held in quantity
> without a permit (garden ponds excepted), though it can be drained or sunk
> with swales without a permit in many cases. Overland flow (not rain!)
> cannot
> diverted from downstream--and from other users, and fish, and
> wetlands--without having your system okayed, which makes sense to me. Too
> many badly designed ponds have done too much damage to watercourses and
> wildlife, hence they tightened the permit process a while back.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
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