permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Same thing here Bob,
I know that my father and grandfather knew things they never passed on that 
might be usefull to me now.
Then again I also know that not all that old wisdom was wise or usefull. My 
maternal grandmother was convinced that small birds and especially tits 
(insectivores) were responsible for bringing "vermin"/aphids to vegetables 
in summer. I am fairly certain the tits only showed up between vegetables 
because there were aphids there for them to eat. I can not see them 
deliberately importing them.
My mother also did not like small birds so that meme must have been going 
around for some few generations. There are similar things. In the 18th 
century all the great biologists thought that swallows hibernated at the 
bottom of local lakes and ponds and it took over a hundred years to change 
that idea.

But there are a universe of modern ideas that have an army of defenders that 
will be thought idiotic in a hundred years time but that for now stand firm 
even if many people already can see where they fail. I am thinking in the 
first place about the whole chemical industry. It is almost impossible to 
cook up any complex chemical molecule without creating a soup of stereo 
isomers that nothing in nature can effectively deal with.

It is easy to create glucose out of very simple molecules such as methane 
and water in a lab. But only part of what you made will be identical to 
glucose made in plants (D glucose). About half of your product will be the 
mirror immage of L glucose that very few organisms can metabolise.
With enormously more complex molecules you can end up with a soup of a dozen 
or more isomers and I think that is the reason that most pesticides and 
herbicides are so persistent in the environment. It is also the main reason 
that modern medicine makes a few million casualties every year I think.

So it is probably best to take no idea for granted and think hard yourself 
about every single one. And of course experiment, see whether it works.
I think that percamulture is a very good idea for instance and also the milk 
paint.

All the best,
John


> Very much appreciation for these technical details. I bet my grandfather
> knew how to do this but it's on the list of things he didn't teach my
> father who of course was then unable to teach me. My maybe he did teach
> my father but my father decided to just not pass it on.  My father's
> ambition is that I would not be a farmer, so there were lots of things
> he didn't teach me that I wish I knew now.
>
> Bob Waldrop
>
> On 7/19/2012 3:27 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> > No, Bob, the whey is surplus for that is where most of the acidity is 
> > found.
> > And acid and lime are not a good combination. It is not all that critical
> > though. Hydrated lime is highly alkaline and able to take a little acid. 
> > We
> > poor sufficiently sour milk through a cotton pillow casing. That can drip
> > for 24 hours or longer and we don't wait that long unless we want to make
> > cheese. Soft cottage cheese is about the right consistency. Add at least 
> > as
> > much volume lime and mix it up then dilute with some water if necessary.
> >
> > We have found this hard wearing on timber and concrete and we also use it 
> > on
> > living apple trees where the bark is under attack by bark cancer fungus.
> > Even on the growing apple trees it is persistent for at least two years 
> > and
> > on concrete for at least 6-7 years in our wet climate. Regular white wash
> > with just lime and water needs to be replaced every year or sooner here.
> >
> > I did not invent this. I read about it in some old book ages ago and had 
> > to
> > try it out. Sorry I can't give you any online references off hand. And I 
> > was
> > pleased with the results. It is not as white as regular white wash but 
> > that
> > was no problem for us. And also we have enough milk here to make that not 
> > a
> > problem. And hydrated lime is still a common building material here.
> >
> > All the best,
> > John in Ireland
> >
> >
> > > This is interesting.  Do we want only the whey, or is the whole soured
> > > milk workable?  Or should I find some casein powder and add that? Do you
> > > also add water too, or is it strictly lime plus soured milk?
> > >
> > > I appreciate the tip.
> > >
> > > Bob Waldrop, OKC
> > >
> > > On 7/18/2012 6:14 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> > > > Another version might be lime + milk (actually early cottage cheese, 
> > > > milk
> > > > gone sour that is releasing the whey. What you need is caseine) We have
> > > > found this very hard wearing and heavy-rain resistant as lime and water
> > > > is
> > > > definitely not.
> > > > john
> > > >
> > > > >          We had several last-minute glitches we have not gotten this
> > > > > done. The first problems were rain, as we had an unusually wet June.
> > > > > Then we had a hard time actually finding hydrated (slaked) lime. None 
> > > > > of
> > > > > the usual suspects I had access to (Lowes, Home Despot, Ace Hardware)
> > > > > stock it anymore.  I have now tracked down some (from a tack shop) 
> > > > > and
> > > > > will do a fence and then we will see about doing the roof.  I am doing
> > > > > the fence first to try out two or three different formulations for
> > > > > whitewash, as there are lots of recipes out there. I am going to try 
> > > > > one
> > > > > version that is only lime and water, another with some salt added, a
> > > > > third with salt added plus letting it sit overnight before using it. 
> > > > > A
> > > > > chemist friend says that the effect of the added salt and letting it 
> > > > > sit
> > > > > is to make it easier to apply, but the cost is some of the whiteness.
> > > > > So we will try a fence before we do the whole roof.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Waldrop, OKC
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/18/2012 10:05 AM, Ken Morneault wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Bob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any feedback on the performance of the whitewash yet?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >     From: Bob Waldrop <bwaldrop@cox.net>
> > > > > > To: ROE2 <runningonempty2@yahoogroups.com>; permaculture
> > > > > > <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:34 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [permaculture] Whitewash Bob's Roof Day plus Mapping/data 
> > > > > > site
> > > > > > find story on white roofs impacts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whitewash Bob’s Roof Day is coming up June 2, 2012, this is a free
> > > > > > workshop at my house in OKC, where we will whitewash my roof.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For info on the benefits of white roofs, see . . .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/WhiteRoofExperiment/WhiteRoof.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For info on the whitewashing of roofs, a very cheap way to get a 
> > > > > > white
> > > > > > roof, see. . .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.theatlanticcities.com/design/2012/04/just-fraction-more-white-roofs-could-have-huge-global-impact/1764/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There’s also a thread in the archives of this group from last year.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone in the neighborhood is welcome to stop by.  Let me know you’re
> > > > > > coming by email to bwaldrop@cox.net or by signing up with the FB 
> > > > > > event,
> > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/events/286135491467827/ .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am also participating in an experiment that will apply a non-toxic
> > > > > > coating after the whitewash has cured.  The goal is to extend the 
> > > > > > life
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > the whitewash from 2-3 years to 8-9 years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A full report will be written and posted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob Waldrop, OKC
> > > > > > https://www.facebook.com/prairierosepermaculture
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com